Philosophy Discussion Forums | A Humans-Only Club for Open-Minded Discussion & Debate

[Tegularius]

Does anyone know Bible verses that say God is omniscient? I think that quality is a philosophical invention.

Not unlike the idea of god being mostly a political one.

[Belindi]

Ought it to matter whether or not The Bible said it?

[Sy Borg]

Apparently Psalm 147:5 says:

Great is our Lord and abundant in strength;
His understanding is infinite.

Re omniscience, that's probably the clincher for people who are into that sort of thing.

Lots of claimed omniscience here: https://bible.knowing-jesus.com/topics/ ... science-Of

Psalms seems to have many of the claims. Then again, it's not much different to the kinds of claims made about Mao at the height of the cultural revolution - an all-powerful, all-knowing leader.

[Sculptor1]

If God told me that tomorrow at exactly 9:30 I will eat a sandwich, is there any way for me to not eat that sandwich?
If so, wouldn't that mean God was wrong?
If not, wouldn't that mean I have no free will?

If my future action doesn't exist, then how can God know it?
If it does exist, then how do I have free will? I can freely make decisions now, in the present. I can't teleport to the past or to the future. If my action already exists, prior my ability to freely make it, then how is it free?

An omnipotent omniscient god has to have known since the beginning of time which of us shall die sinners and which of us shall die saints.
Therefore in the vey act of your personal creation, the seeds of your doom or salvation are already known, and in that knowlege He creates us all.
The concept of divine omniscience is utterly and completely incompatble with the idea of free will.
There is no getting out of this.

[Sculptor1]

Ought it to matter whether or not The Bible said it?

Apparently those calling themselves "Christians" tend to think that is in fact the case, since their only source of "christ" is that book.

[Sculptor1]

Does anyone know Bible verses that say God is omniscient? I think that quality is a philosophical invention.

God ... knoweth all things. 1 John 3:20
He's a mind reader.
No thought can be withholden from thee. Job 42:2
He knows the secrets of everyone's heart.
For he knoweth the secrets of the heart. Psalm 44:21
Thou, Lord, which knowest the hearts of all men. Acts 1:24

You can't hide from God. He's everywhere.
Whither shall I flee from thy presence? If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there; if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there. Psalm 139:7-8
Can any hide himself in secret places that I shall not see him? saith the Lord. Do not I fill heaven and earth? Jeremiah 23:24

His eyes are everywhere; he can see everything.
The eyes of the Lord are in every place. Proverbs 15:3
For mine eyes are upon all their ways: they are not hid from my face, neither is their iniquity hid from mine eyes. Jeremiah 16:17

HOWEVER

God couldn't see Adam and Eve when they hid in the Garden of Eden.
And Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the Lord, amongst the trees of the garden. And the LORD God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou? Genesis 3:8-9
After Cain killed Abel, he hid in the land of Nod from the face of God.
Behold, thou hast driven me out this day from the face of the earth; and from thy face shall I be hid. ... And Cain went out from the presence of the LORD, and dwelt in the land of Nod, on the east of Eden. Genesis 4:14-16
God came down to see the Tower of Babel. (He couldn't see it from where he was sitting.)
And they said, Go to, let us build us a city and a tower, whose top may reach unto heaven; and let us make us a name, lest we be scattered abroad upon the face of the whole earth. And the Lord came down to see the city and the tower. Genesis 11:4-5
When God and his friends visited Abraham, they didn't know where Sarah was.
The LORD appeared unto him [Abraham] in the plains of Mamre: and he sat in the tent door in the heat of the day; And he lift up his eyes and looked, and, lo, three men stood by him. ... And they said unto him, Where is Sarah thy wife? And he said, Behold, in the tent. Genesis 18:1-9
As God pondered murdering everyone in Sodom and Gomorrah, he asked himself, "Shall I hide from Abraham the thing that I do?"
And the LORD said, Shall I hide from Abraham that thing which I do? Genesis 18:17
God had to come down to Sodom to see if the Sodomites were as bad as he'd heard.
And the Lord said, Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous, I will go down now and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come unto me; and, if not, I will know. Genesis 18:20-21
God didn't know that Abraham feared God until Abraham showed his willingness to murder his son for God.
For now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me. Genesis 22:12
After God lost a wrestling match with Jacob, he asked Jacob his name. (God didn't know who he was wrestling with.)
And he [God] said unto him [Jacob], What is thy name? And he said, Jacob. And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed.... And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face. Genesis 32:27-30
Before opening the mouth of Balaam's ass (Numbers 22:28-20), he asked Balaam who were the men that were with him.
And God came unto Balaam, and said, What men are these with thee? Numbers 22:9
God led the Israelites for forty years (on a trip that should have taken a few weeks) so that he could know what was in their hearts.
God led thee these forty years in the wilderness ... to know what what in thine heart. Deuteronomy 8:2
God didn't know if the Israelites would obey him or not.
Through them I may prove Israel, whether they will keep the way of the LORD to walk therein, as their fathers did keep it, or not. Judges 2:22
If a prophet or dreamer of dreams tells you to worship other gods. Kill him. God sends guys like that every now and then to see if you love him enough.
If there arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams, and giveth thee a sign or a wonder, And the sign or the wonder come to pass, whereof he spake unto thee, saying, Let us go after other gods, which thou hast not known, and let us serve them; Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: for the LORD your God proveth you, to know whether ye love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul. ... And that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams, shall be put to death. The Lord your God proveth you, to know whether ye love the Lord your God. Deuteronomy 13:3
God has tested Hezekiah to see what is in his heart.
God left him [Hezekiah], to try him, that he might know all that was in his heart. 2 Chronicles 32:31
Before God and Satan played their cruel game with the lives of Job and his family, God asked Satan what he'd been up to lately.
And the Lord said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the Lord, and said, from going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it. Job 1:7, 2:2
The Israelites set up kings and princes without God's knowledge.
They [the Israelites] have set up kings, but not by me: they have made princes, and I knew it not. Hosea 8:4
Jonah tried to hide himself from the presence of the Lord by sailing to Tarshish. But God sent a storm that scared the sailors, who knew that Jonah was running away from God's presence.
But Jonah rose up to flee unto Tarshish from the presence of the LORD, and went down to Joppa; and he found a ship going to Tarshish: so he paid the fare thereof, and went down into it, to go with them unto Tarshish from the presence of the LORD. But the LORD sent out a great wind into the sea, and there was a mighty tempest in the sea, so that the ship was like to be broken. ... Then were the men exceedingly afraid, and said unto him. Why hast thou done this? For the men knew that he fled from the presence of the LORD, because he had told them. Jonah 1:3-10

[Nitai]

Like I said as long you see God as a machine you won't understand this issue. (and many others)


God's love always overpower his power. But unless you come to this Love ( that is you're free will ) you are conditionned to react to certain stimulus. That is why also even some ancients sciences can reveal your futur; so what to speak of God.

[Sy Borg]

Like I said as long you see God as a machine you won't understand this issue. (and many others)

But God is not any kind of person. The idea is as ridiculous as the idea of a gendered God referred to as "him". The notion cannot reasonably be considered for even a moment, no more than Zeus and Odin.

While God, if existent, is clearly neither a male nor a person, "a machine" is hardly the only other option. If God exists, it would be as impossible for us to understand as it would be for our gut bacteria to understand the whole human. Besides, the use of machines as a metaphor for life or the cosmos is backwards. It is machines that echo natural dynamics, not the other way around.

[Tegularius]

Will and choice are only available based on the ability of the entity with the power to practice it. Even if god were all-knowing who's range of free will runs full circle IT would have to know what each of its future decisions will be which begins to be paradoxical. What will decides based on available options cannot be known to god or human. If All-Knowing means knowing all things in advance then free will is defunct in such an all-knowing entity more so than in humans who always struggle with the next step.

[detail]

God is a terminology that was invented by aristocrats to justify their personal waywardness for the common people like you and me. Terminolgies like ward, a slave that you can slap if you are thought too dumm during your shool lessons in order to get more intelligent are simply a bloodshed for modern people, but were used in an old bible to describe the humiliation of the working classes. The bible just praises the kings, we wanted to get rid of .

[detail]

God is not alknowing but just a method invented by aristocrats to enslave and to submiss the working classes.

[Nitai]

Like I said as long you see God as a machine you won't understand this issue. (and many others)

But God is not any kind of person. The idea is as ridiculous as the idea of a gendered God referred to as "him". The notion cannot reasonably be considered for even a moment, no more than Zeus and Odin.

While God, if existent, is clearly neither a male nor a person, "a machine" is hardly the only other option. If God exists, it would be as impossible for us to understand as it would be for our gut bacteria to understand the whole human. Besides, the use of machines as a metaphor for life or the cosmos is backwards. It is machines that echo natural dynamics, not the other way around.

God is of course beyond genders as you understand it.
But Genders and personhood are a part of reality and have a source. It is not coming out of nowhere.
So the source have to have both and more.

You are a person and you think that you are coming from an impersonnal void or machine ?
That is a ridiculous idea to me and to reason.

Just look at life and learn from it because without refering to what Is, we can invent so many nonsense theories out of touch of existence itself, that is one of the madness of human being.

In all this theories life is devoid of Beauty, Love, Compassion ect.. actually life is just meaningless and have no value !!
And I don't say that as an argument to have a need of beleive but as an argument that if you feel life you will know it is non sense.

[Sy Borg]

Like I said as long you see God as a machine you won't understand this issue. (and many others)

But God is not any kind of person. The idea is as ridiculous as the idea of a gendered God referred to as "him". The notion cannot reasonably be considered for even a moment, no more than Zeus and Odin.

While God, if existent, is clearly neither a male nor a person, "a machine" is hardly the only other option. If God exists, it would be as impossible for us to understand as it would be for our gut bacteria to understand the whole human. Besides, the use of machines as a metaphor for life or the cosmos is backwards. It is machines that echo natural dynamics, not the other way around.

God is of course beyond genders as you understand it.
But Genders and personhood are a part of reality and have a source. It is not coming out of nowhere.
So the source have to have both and more.

You are a person and you think that you are coming from an impersonnal void or machine ?
That is a ridiculous idea to me and to reason.

Just look at life and learn from it because without refering to what Is, we can invent so many nonsense theories out of touch of existence itself, that is one of the madness of human being.

In all this theories life is devoid of Beauty, Love, Compassion ect.. actually life is just meaningless and have no value !!
And I don't say that as an argument to have a need of beleive but as an argument that if you feel life you will know it is non sense.

I could ask you the same the question. If you think that the lifelike cannot emerge from the machinelike, then why do you think the machinelike can emerge from life? Shouldn't that which is intrinsically alive only produce more life, as per your post?

You also dicount the fact that most of what you do and say is automatic. The freedom only applies to the thinnest sliver of life's operations. Yet, rather than valuing the marvels of nature, you treat as "lesser" the mechanistic aspects of you that are most connected to the Earth.

You seem to consider emotions - "beauty, love, compassion", to be all that matters, yet all manner of animals experience emotions. Emotions are nothing special, just the link between the physical and the mental aspects of oneself, to help keep the entire system in sync. Brains emerged to protect metabolisms - to detect threats and opportunities and to trigger responses. That's what brains and nervous systems do.

Consider beauty. Why are green fields, blue skies and fluffy clouds beautiful to us? Because these are generally considered healthful conditions, as opposed to brown lands with murky skies. Why are certain people considered beautiful? Because they look healthy and robust, capable of contributing good genes to a partnership.

Now, in complex human cultures, there are meta dynamics layered atop these basic impulses. However, just a few days without food will bring the whole edifice crashing down, as our prior values are crushed under the weight of the survival instinct. That is, what we tend to think of as important in this life tends to be fragile and usually fairly superficial. That's why people close to death so often have regrets that they did not simply open their eyes and ears and appreciate the everyday wonders that we dismiss offhand while busy with "more important" issues.

[Diascarus]

What if all future actions you could possibly make at that point in time a possibility? You could come up with an almost endless list for what could happen at that time of 9:30, but only a mind on the level of a god, or god would know what they all are. I think there is a middle ground we quite miss between hard determinism and free will.

Take quantum mechanics, the electron of an atom can not be pin point located. (Unless some new research is out) its always approximated where you could find it. A probability, if you will. The old hermetic saying is "As above, so below." I think we arrived at such an occasion. The below being the electrons of the atoms not being located, and the above is the probability of an action being taken in your future. God, or gods could be witnessing a form of quantum mechanics with the future. "As above, so below." Your future, my future, maybe even a god or gods future are all probabilities. Never knowing the true "location" or "action" to take place when it does, but you can be sure something can take place there. Even if you do nothing, for you are still existing and your body is still conducting natural processes.

(You could actually teleport to the past, though it's doubtful you'd survive. You would need two near colliding black holes and to be able to navigate in and out of their event horizon. So good luck. Perhaps a god could manage that? lol just a little joke.)

[-0+]

God knows how you will react according to you conditioning but you can go beyond you conditioning by Love of God, then it really becomes interesting, for Him and for you.
So you have Free will to either choose your conditioning or to choose to know and Love God.

Is this analogous to a creator of a computer game potentially knowing what a character is programmed to do - what it will do by default if its player doesn't anything - but not knowing what the player will do?

Things only become interesting when something is unknown. If everything is known, including whether John will choose his conditioning or to know and love God, then what room does this leave for interest and free will?

God is omniscient, omnipotent and omnipresent.
That's why He can choose to let you the free will to Love.

This is commonly believed, perhaps because believers don't want to accept that God has any limitation, but how logically compatible is omniscient and omnipotent?

Probability and views on "free will" may be relative to knowledge.

If Jane knows everything and there are things that John doesn't know, then it may be reasonable for them to have different ideas about possibility, probability, and free will based on what they know. John may think it is possible for a tossed coin to land heads up because he doesn't know how it will land. However, if Jane knows it will land tails up then for her the probability of tails is 1 and the probability of heads is zero. She knows it is not possible for the coin to land heads up. If she thinks it is possible, then she lacks some certainty - she doesn't really know.

If Jane is all-knowing then she knows everything that John will do, whether this is part of his conditioning or not. He may reasonably think it is possible for him to do something else and that he is free to choose to do this, but she knows it is not possible for him to choose to do this because she knows the probability of this zero. In order for him to have free will it has to be possible (probability > zero) for him to do something else. In his non-all-knowing mind it may be possible, but in her all-knowing mind it is not possible.

All-knowing Jane also knows everything that she will do. She knows it is not possible for her to do anything other than what she knows she will do. She is powerless to do anything else. She is a slave to her knowledge. She knows she has no free will. She knows John doesn't really have free will either and he only thinks he has because he doesn't know what she knows. It is not possible for her to give him free will, only a sense of free will which can only be achieved by not sharing all her knowledge with him. For her it is not a question of possibility. She either gives him this false sense or she doesn't, depending on what she knows she will do. For her, all probability is binary. She has zero interest in anything.

The only way she can become interested in anything and have any sense of freedom is to become aware that there may be something she doesn't know. Maybe she only thinks she knows everything but there are some things she doesn't really know? How can she know that she knows everything? Even if she is knows there are no known unknowns, how can she know that there aren't any unknown unknowns?