Philosophy Discussion Forums | A Humans-Only Club for Open-Minded Discussion & Debate

[Belindi]

All infectious diseases are opportunistic to some degree.

[Sculptor1]

All infectious diseases are opportunistic to some degree.

I'm not sure what else they are!

[Belindi]

All infectious diseases are opportunistic to some degree.

I'm not sure what else they are!

How do you mean? You must know characteristics of infectious diseases other than that they are opportunistic!

[Sculptor1]

I'm not sure what else they are!

How do you mean? You must know characteristics of infectious diseases other than that they are opportunistic!

It was the word "some" degree that I thought odd. Since viruses do nothing other than exploit the living systems of host cells, it seems the main thing they do is take opportunities as they present.

[Belindi]

How do you mean? You must know characteristics of infectious diseases other than that they are opportunistic!

It was the word "some" degree that I thought odd. Since viruses do nothing other than exploit the living systems of host cells, it seems the main thing they do is take opportunities as they present.

I see. Some specific pathogens are more/have been more invasive or virulent than others and will cause diseases whether or not the host is undernourished, overworked, or living in overcrowded housing. Smallpox was like this as it was a health risk for rich and poor individuals alike at the stage of initial invasion and at the stage of development of virus (or bacteria if the invader was syphilis bacteria) within the host.
However all pathogens are opportunistic in the general sense as you describe .

[Sculptor1]

It was the word "some" degree that I thought odd. Since viruses do nothing other than exploit the living systems of host cells, it seems the main thing they do is take opportunities as they present.

I see. Some specific pathogens are more/have been more invasive or virulent than others and will cause diseases whether or not the host is undernourished, overworked, or living in overcrowded housing. Smallpox was like this as it was a health risk for rich and poor individuals alike at the stage of initial invasion and at the stage of development of virus (or bacteria if the invader was syphilis bacteria) within the host.
However all pathogens are opportunistic in the general sense as you describe .

So the thought was, since the degree of opportunism is not a factor of the virus, but a factor of the host, the opportunity relates to the host which/who allows the opportunity.
Opportunities smack of volition which can probably be rejected as thing that can apply to a non conscious entity. Viruses are one step above chemicals. Just seems a bit odd to say that, say, a poison, can take the opportunity to attack the poisoned.

[Belindi]

I see. Some specific pathogens are more/have been more invasive or virulent than others and will cause diseases whether or not the host is undernourished, overworked, or living in overcrowded housing. Smallpox was like this as it was a health risk for rich and poor individuals alike at the stage of initial invasion and at the stage of development of virus (or bacteria if the invader was syphilis bacteria) within the host.
However all pathogens are opportunistic in the general sense as you describe .

So the thought was, since the degree of opportunism is not a factor of the virus, but a factor of the host, the opportunity relates to the host which/who allows the opportunity.
Opportunities smack of volition which can probably be rejected as thing that can apply to a non conscious entity. Viruses are one step above chemicals. Just seems a bit odd to say that, say, a poison, can take the opportunity to attack the poisoned.

Virus has properties that not alive poisons don't have, due I understand to these nasty spikey things that latch on. Some plants do latching- on, sticky willy (cleavers)for instance

[Sculptor1]

So the thought was, since the degree of opportunism is not a factor of the virus, but a factor of the host, the opportunity relates to the host which/who allows the opportunity.
Opportunities smack of volition which can probably be rejected as thing that can apply to a non conscious entity. Viruses are one step above chemicals. Just seems a bit odd to say that, say, a poison, can take the opportunity to attack the poisoned.

Virus has properties that not alive poisons don't have, due I understand to these nasty spikey things that latch on. Some plants do latching- on, sticky willy (cleavers)for instance

Viruses are not motive. Poisons "latch on" to neurons too.

[Belindi]

Virus has properties that not alive poisons don't have, due I understand to these nasty spikey things that latch on. Some plants do latching- on, sticky willy (cleavers)for instance

Viruses are not motive. Poisons "latch on" to neurons too.

That is the point I was making. Latching-on to cells is not always motivated or even evidence of life

[Newme]

It's too early to tell about what's going on exactly with COVID-19, but if you can provide references to such studies, it would be useful. I suspect people die from the effects of the virus in vital organs such as lungs and kidneys, which is why more deaths occur among the elderly and people with previous health conditions. If that's what is meant by "other factors" I don't see any major disagreement with what has been said so far.

Context is important, especially when deciphering conflicting news etc. So, I’ll share studies as well as other data. I’d appreciate your thoughts on this.

99% of patients killed by coronavirus in Italy had existing illnesses
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... finds.html

CDC: 94% of Covid-19 deaths had underlying medical conditions
https://www.msn.com/en-us/health/medica ... r-BB18wrA7

^That’s generally how flu is.

On the chart in link below, look at the flu, pneumonia & covid deaths over the last several years. Notice as flu & pneumonia deaths went down, covid deaths went up - covid was blamed for other deaths to try to scare people & justify tyrannical actions. And 2018? Why no shut downs or masks bs then - when it was worse than the same time 2020?
https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-nc ... -data.html

What adds to the lack of trust are scripted news like this: https://youtu.be/eUTF6MIBs-4


A rough timeline to consider:

* 1965 Scientists first identified a human coronavirus. Typical colds were never made into paranoid news, though.

*”2005 - 2012 the US had experienced 1,059 events where pathogens had been either stolen or escaped from American bio-labs...“

*Fort Detrick (US military bio-warfare lab in Maryland) was shut down multiple times, including:
2009 for storing 9,200 viles of pathogens not listed on inventory
https://www.dcreport.org/2019/12/04/the ... rfare-lab/

*2009 H1N1 Pandemic (no masks, no social distancing globalization)

* 7/2014 Bill Gate’s PIRBRIGHT INSTITUTE Applied for patent for Coronavirus
Granted patent 2018
https://patents.google.com/patent/US10130701B2/en

*2015 Bill Gates says we need military games pandemic practice (5:40...) https://youtu.be/6Af6b_wyiwI

*7/3019 Fort Detrick sent cease and desist order by CDC. Bio-warfare lab shut down.

*10/18/2019 Johns Hopkins Center for Health Security in partnership with the World Economic Forum and the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation hosted Event 201, a high-level PANDEMIC EXERCISE in New York, NY.
Hm... what have they learned for the real thing???

*10/18/2019 The 2019 Military World Games, officially known as the 7th CISM Military World Games and commonly known as Wuhan 2019, was held from October 18–27, 2019 in Wuhan, Hubei, China. US team usually outperforms most but did badly and were suspected of being sick.

*11/2019 1st covid case in China (though some suggest earlier cases in US & Italy) https://www.livescience.com/first-case- ... found.html

*1/2020 +45 million in China under quarantine, some dramatically (& purposely caught on camera & released to US media) of boarding people up into apartment buildings. Drastic measures in China, unusually shared with US media. Hm... (why suddenly now?) Reports of beginning spread to US.

*2/2020... 3 in my family including me had heavy chest cold with fever - covid symptoms, & successfully recovered.

*March 2020 US orders to shut down small “non-essential” businesses, churches, schools & restricts social gatherings. Reports by multiple nurses & doctors across the US of many false reports of covid as cause of death when patients died of other causes, & unethical but legal murders of patients forced onto ventilators when inappropriate...
ICU Nurse Whistle blower: Covid19 is Manufactured Crisis:
https://youtu.be/uGZ-DW5LVCs
Other doctors/health care reports:
https://youtu.be/FNGfVAomEy0
https://youtu.be/xfLVxx_lBLU
(https://www.bitchute.com/video/X48ntH3XvyNK/)
https://youtu.be/a2vEPEXJVts
https://youtu.be/nlkq21bWWSc
https://newyorkcityguns.com/new-york-un ... inal-hoax/
*Note: censoring led to a lot of reports being taken down.

*March 2020 Government $2,000,000,000,000 ($2 Trillion) stimulus package.

*2020 media censoring anything that questions the scripted narrative like the following...
“Japanese and Taiwanese epidemiologists and pharmacologists have determined that the new coronavirus could have originated in the US since that country is the only one known to have all five types – from which all others must have descended. Wuhan in China has only one of those types, rendering it in analogy as a kind of “branch” which cannot exist by itself but must have grown from a “tree”...
It would seem the only possibility for origination would be the US because only that country has the “tree trunk” of all the varieties. And it may therefore be true that the original source of the COVID-19 virus was the US military bio-warfare lab at Fort Detrick.”
https://www.globalresearch.ca/covid-19- ... us/5706078

*6/2020 The Army Quietly Re-Opens Its Infamous Germ Warfare Lab, Fort Detrick (https://www.dcreport.org/2019/12/04/the ... rfare-lab/)

*2020 Gates smiled as he explained the next plandemic, as if to say,
“Covid was nothing - just wait until you see how many are killed next time we initiate a bio weapon!”
[youtube]ELP2EFVOOYc[/youtube]

[Count Lucanor]

It's too early to tell about what's going on exactly with COVID-19, but if you can provide references to such studies, it would be useful. I suspect people die from the effects of the virus in vital organs such as lungs and kidneys, which is why more deaths occur among the elderly and people with previous health conditions. If that's what is meant by "other factors" I don't see any major disagreement with what has been said so far.

Context is important, especially when deciphering conflicting news etc. So, I’ll share studies as well as other data. I’d appreciate your thoughts on this.

99% of patients killed by coronavirus in Italy had existing illnesses
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... finds.html

CDC: 94% of Covid-19 deaths had underlying medical conditions
https://www.msn.com/en-us/health/medica ... r-BB18wrA7

All of this is consistent with what had been reported since the early days of the pandemic. I don't see nothing new here. It's comorbidity.

On the chart in link below, look at the flu, pneumonia & covid deaths over the last several years. Notice as flu & pneumonia deaths went down, covid deaths went up - covid was blamed for other deaths to try to scare people & justify tyrannical actions. And 2018? Why no shut downs or masks bs then - when it was worse than the same time 2020?
https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-nc ... -data.html

What the graphic shows is a consistent pattern of peaks and valleys of deaths by pneumonia and influenza for around 5 years, a pattern that does not seem to show anomalies in the months in which COVID-19 deaths appear. It also shows a fast increase in COVID-19 deaths in a few months. This is consistent with what had been reported and I don't see any conspiracy to "scare people and justify tyrannical actions". Bear in mind that you're looking at death rates here, not infection rates, and since viral pneumonia is a complication from flu or colds, the graph would have to show the fatality rate of these conditions and how they compare to the corona viruses family. Here is some insight on this:

Live Science - How does the new coronavirus compare with the flu?

Research so far indicates that COVID-19 spreads more easily and has a higher death rate than the flu.

What adds to the lack of trust are scripted news like this: https://youtu.be/eUTF6MIBs-4

The video is not available (removed by the uploader).

A rough timeline to consider:

Sorry I didn't go through all the links provided, but a broad view shows this in the neighborhood of conspiracy theory. Not worth it.

[Newme]

“The term Conspiracy Theory was created by the CIA in 1967 as a way to discredit anyone who dared to challenge their official version of the truth.”

Sure, there are some crazy notions of big foot etc., but it’s mixed in with truth, to discredit inconvenient facts.

[Count Lucanor]

“The term Conspiracy Theory was created by the CIA in 1967 as a way to discredit anyone who dared to challenge their official version of the truth.”

Sure, there are some crazy notions of big foot etc., but it’s mixed in with truth, to discredit inconvenient facts.

That by itself is a conspiracy theory.

There’s a conspiracy theory that the CIA invented the term ‘conspiracy theory’ – here’s why

Just for the record, it should be expected that conspiracies have taken place in history. One can argue that some conspiracy theories are true, but not that all or most conspiracy theories are true. The bigger the conspiracy, the less likely it is that it could have happened, for the obvious reason that for a conspiracy to work for a long time, it must be sustained by the minimal amount of participating agents.

[Newme]

Your sweeping dismissal of facts told me you mislabeled it “conspiracy theory” to feel justified in not addressing facts you may not know what to do with.

What I have found is that often there is a middle ground. Some people get paranoid or other use exaggerate facts into more than they are, while at the other extreme, some dismiss it all and close their eyes to inconvenient facts & thereby contribute to the problem.

"All that is required for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing.” - Edmund Burke

[Count Lucanor]

Your sweeping dismissal of facts told me you mislabeled it “conspiracy theory” to feel justified in not addressing facts you may not know what to do with.

I gave you the proper arguments to show that the facts point in a different direction than what you're claiming. Instead of dealing with them, you only resort to the "this-looks-suspicious" rhetoric that is typical of conspiracy theorists.