Philosophy Discussion Forums | A Humans-Only Club for Open-Minded Discussion & Debate

[Sculptor1]

Sculptor1: "The Argument from design has been rendered invalid by Darwin."

If I'm not mistaken, Darwin was a Deist, i.e., he believed that a Supreme Intelligence planted the tree of evolution, but not that He tended it thereafter - nurtured it's growth. But design is only apparent to those capable of recognizing it, e.g., an ant is a poor judge of landscape design.

Theists and Deists have all claimed Darwin as their own.

Specifically he rejected religion, especially when he beloved daughter Annie died.
I can't recall him ever using the term "Deist", but you could show me false.
My view is that he was the agnostic type of atheist. Deism was showing its age by the late 19thC.

[Sculptor1]

Sculptor1: "The Argument from design has been rendered invalid by Darwin."

If I'm not mistaken, Darwin was a Deist, i.e., he believed that a Supreme Intelligence planted the tree of evolution, but not that He tended it thereafter - nurtured it's growth. But design is only apparent to those capable of recognizing it, e.g., an ant is a poor judge of landscape design.

I've done a little research for you on this. The International Library of Liberty has all of Darwin's works. The phrase "Deism" is not to be found.
There were only two references to "deity", from The Origin of Species.

It has been said that I speak of natural selection as an active power or Deity; but who objects to an author speaking of the attraction of gravity as ruling the movements of the planets? Every one knows what is meant and is implied by such metaphorical expressions; and they are almost necessary for brevity. So again it is difficult to avoid personifying the word Nature; but I mean by Nature, only the aggregate action and product of many natural laws, and by laws the sequence of events as ascertained by us. With a little familiarity such superficial objections will be forgotten.

https://oll.libertyfund.org/titles/darw ... 423-04_168

[Sculptor1]

Is a sock a single individual thing to you?

If yes, then yes. As I said, From thee Universe Itself to absolutely every other single individual thing.

So how is a sock evidence for God?

If all the socks were one sock, what a great sock-follolloper that would bold.

[Sy Borg]

A straw man attack on Darwin was made above.

Darwin had nothing to say about a creator. He was just doing science. You know how priests don't tend to talk about organic chemistry in sermons? Well, scientists don't suddenly talk about God when conducting research too. Neither field focuses on welding pipes - that's for welders. Each field sticks to its own, aside from multidisciplinary teams. So, the scientific method is used by scientists. Revelation and petition are how theists operate. Welders weld. Doctors administer medicine and so on. You can't blame a scientist for not trying to relate his or her work to God. You might as well blame them for not considering the connections with arc welding.

Darwin, as a scientist, simply described what he observed and used that information to make predictions, which tended to be successful and, when they weren't, there were reasonable explanations that did not undermine evolutionary theory.

The fact is that everything evolves. Evolution is basically another word for "profound change occurring over deep time". It appears to me that evolution is the gestation of the biosphere as a whole, but people from all sides worry about that notion :)

The bottom line is that nothing ever stays the same and an awful lot can happen in four billion years, more than humans could have ever imagined, given that the entirety of human history is still only a brief moment in the planet's history. We are still finding undiscovered fossils today.

[evolution]

Despite my clear explanations your critique and oppositions are many! LOL

What is so funny about having many oppositions and critiques?

Let me I bring a vivid example in another way:

Why do you write "me I ..."?

We can't compare ourselves with God in creation,

If we cannot do this, then okay. But I see you do compare 'ourselves", whoever that is exactly, with God. In fact I see you do this in your next sentence. So, why do you say "We can't compare ourselves with God in creation" when you in fact do do that?

but we can claim we humans are some dependent creators that are able to create new things that didn't exist before.

You, human beings, can claim absolutely anything you want to.

So please note the below objects that I designed and created!

Okay, noted.

What is the first one?

And, did you design and created the computer mouse?

Have you met me before?

Yes, but you are probably thinking 'met' in another way that I am, correct?

Are you seeing me now?

Yes, but I see 'you', and just about most other things in Life differently than 'you' and most other people do anyway.

Surely, the answer is no.

Then surely you are very mistaken and wrong.

So how can you understand my personality (just now)?

The same way I can understand that personality (at any other time).

How can you realize the level of my knowledge, ability and doctrine?

By what is expressed through language and behaviors. Is there any other way?

Surely you can't know me from my shape in a picture or even via a live video chat (if I remain silent, don't say anything or don't show my artworks).

But who do you think is the 'you', which you are now proposing has "shape"?

Q- So, how you can recognize my character, abilities and intelligence?

A- Just through two signs; my words and my works!

Well that is what I have already said. So, we agree, correct?

This is what I explained about the way that we can know God; with this difference that God is the absolute creator and we are dependent creators ( to him).

But just because 'you', one individual human being, say some thing, that does NOT make what 'you' say true, right, nor correct.

If one KNOWS God, then that one could explain 'God' in a very logical, sensible, and reasonable way. So, if you want propose that you KNOW God, then who and/or what is 'God', EXACTLY?

And, why do you propose God is of male human gender for?

So, for knowing a person it is not necessary we look at him curiously! In the other word, If we meet a person, who remains silent we can't recognize his character by watching him. Whatever we look at the silent person we can't understand who he is or how he is, until he begins speaking and reveal his character via his word or showing his works.

But what happens with a human being who is dumb and cannot or does not speak? Are you trying to suggest that that one can never be recognized nor understood?

Recognizing God by thinking to his essence and quality is impossible, and the only way that we can understand his existence and character is his words and works.

So, what are, to you, God's words and works?

The nature is a part of his word that those are the signs of his knowledge and abilities.

What do you mean by 'the nature'?

What is not 'the nature'?

Please look at this picture. This is a word of God!
A biological being that is able to run about 100 km per hour, with a vast chest and large lungs for a high breathing and a thin body and aerodynamic head for running with this wonderful high speed!

But would that be the 'word of God' if it could only run at, let us say, 90 km per hour? Or what about at only 80 km per hour, or let us say 50 km per hour, or what about if it could only run as fast as you can, or what about if it could only run as fast as a snail, for example, then would it still be the 'word of God', or would that not class as the 'word of God'?

This is one of the countless intelligent designs of God that is enough we can recognize a part of his endless knowledge and ability. Don't forget it is a live being and is not comparable with the solid and non biological things that we design and create.

Okay I will not forget this.

Of course in addition to this visual beings; God speaks, as well!

He has talked with mankind.

Was it God that told you that God was a "he", or was that humankind, who some call themselves "man"kind that told you that God is a "he"?

Surely the word of God should be so much higher than the words of man.

Maybe they are. But maybe sadly those words get drowned out by those mistaken words of the humankind?

We will just have to wait and see how you explain how you supposedly know God is a "he".

In fact, his words should shows his greatness, endless knowledge, logic and arts! The words that nobody can create the words like them!

Okay if you say so.

[evolution]

Is a sock a single individual thing to you?

If yes, then yes. As I said, From thee Universe Itself to absolutely every other single individual thing.

So how is a sock evidence for God?

One could also well ask how is a sock not evidence for God?

But, for me to be able to answer your question, properly and correctly, for you, then I will need to know what does the word 'God' mean, or refer to, to you?

[evolution]

A straw man attack on Darwin was made above.

Darwin had nothing to say about a creator. He was just doing science. You know how priests don't tend to talk about organic chemistry in sermons? Well, scientists don't suddenly talk about God when conducting research too. Neither field focuses on welding pipes - that's for welders. Each field sticks to its own, aside from multidisciplinary teams. So, the scientific method is used by scientists. Revelation and petition are how theists operate. Welders weld. Doctors administer medicine and so on. You can't blame a scientist for not trying to relate his or her work to God. You might as well blame them for not considering the connections with arc welding.

Darwin, as a scientist, simply described what he observed and used that information to make predictions, which tended to be successful and, when they weren't, there were reasonable explanations that did not undermine evolutionary theory.

All "darwin" ever really did was just help in verifying just what is written in the bible, that is: Everything is created, which is evolving, which just means through evolution every thing is created. This is what is clearly written, and stated in the bible, as can be clearly SEEN and evidenced.

The old 'creation verses evolution' discussions, or it is either 'one or the other' discussions are old history now.

The fact is that everything evolves. Evolution is basically another word for "profound change occurring over deep time". It appears to me that evolution is the gestation of the biosphere as a whole, but people from all sides worry about that notion

'Every thing' has to obviously be created first, before is can evolve, and ALL created things obviously only came about because of evolution, itself, which in plain old language is just 'change' itself.

The bottom line is that nothing ever stays the same and an awful lot can happen in four billion years, more than humans could have ever imagined, given that the entirety of human history is still only a brief moment in the planet's history. We are still finding undiscovered fossils today.

[Sy Borg]

The only only relation of evolution to the Bible is a brief passage on the first page which is basically a description of evolution, as described by someone living in pre-scientific times.

I see no relevance in what the Bible says when it comes to science. Ditto the Koran, Bhagavad Gita, the Upanishads, the Talmud and Tantras.

[Faustus5]

All "darwin" ever really did was just help in verifying just what is written in the bible, that is: Everything is created, which is evolving, which just means through evolution every thing is created. This is what is clearly written, and stated in the bible, as can be clearly SEEN and evidenced.

There is absolutely nothing about natural selection mentioned or even hinted at in the Bible. The essential, core insight from Darwin was that biological complexity emerges from an utterly mindless, purposeless process. Again, completely alien to anything in scripture.

[Terrapin Station]

So how is a sock evidence for God?

One could also well ask how is a sock not evidence for God?

Sure, so one reason why is that God is not cotton or polyester or whatever.

But, for me to be able to answer your question, properly and correctly, for you, then I will need to know what does the word 'God' mean, or refer to, to you?

Just answer in the context of what God is to you. If God is cotton to you, then definitely a sock might be evidence of God per your conception, but then a pair of scissors probably wouldn't be (unless they're very unusual scissors made out of cotton).

[Mans]

LOL

evolution, your manner of discussion is interesting! I love your care to the words, but I think you try to ignore their meanings and philosophies

I think those who with agnostic tendency try to make a divine discussion mixed up and complex to confuse he who brings some simple proofs about existence of God! I think in addition to other factors, one of the key reasons of disbelief in God is just this manner of thinking which they leave the vivid and simple proofs and go to the complex words, phrase and philosophies that take them away from the subject more and more, because a group of them think this manner of philosophy is more develop than theistic belief and is closer to nowadays science and technology, while today a trivial microbiological beings with a particular genetic array has made man, science and technology unable!

Well, my purpose is not that to humiliate the sciences and technology, because I myself am a talented researcher (or maybe scientist) in these fields, but I want to say what human knows is very less than what he doesn't know! The material sciences is just a page of creation book and there are so many knowledge and mysteries upon these issues that man doesn't know!

How can we travel to the Mars with an airplane?! And how we can travel to the farthest galaxies with a spacecraft with hydrogen and oxygen (or even atomic) fuel?! I think if it is possible, it will take long about thousand trillion years!!

(despite I love astronomy sciences and NASA researches very much, I had to bring this example)

I was going to answer some of your questions but my English is slow and writing long comments makes me tired. I will reply to the questions later. But let me I answer one.

Yes, the computer mouse is my own design. It is not among those mouses that are taught in the internet or instruction articles

[evolution]

All "darwin" ever really did was just help in verifying just what is written in the bible, that is: Everything is created, which is evolving, which just means through evolution every thing is created. This is what is clearly written, and stated in the bible, as can be clearly SEEN and evidenced.

There is absolutely nothing about natural selection mentioned or even hinted at in the Bible.

If this is what you believe is true, then there is absolutely NOTHING that could show you otherwise.

The essential, core insight from Darwin was that biological complexity emerges from an utterly mindless, purposeless process. Again, completely alien to anything in scripture.

Again, if this is what you believe is true, then there is absolutely NOTHING that you would be OPEN to listening to nor looking at.

[evolution]

One could also well ask how is a sock not evidence for God?

Sure, so one reason why is that God is not cotton or polyester or whatever.

That is; from your perspective.

But, for me to be able to answer your question, properly and correctly, for you, then I will need to know what does the word 'God' mean, or refer to, to you?

Just answer in the context of what God is to you.

But, obviously if you do not yet know what God is, in the context to me, then my answer would make ABSOLUTELY NO SENSE AT ALL, TO YOU.

Whilst you do not yet know what God means, to me, you will look at and see my answer in context of what God means, or refers to, to you, which again will make ABSOLUTELY NOT SENSE AT ALL, TO YOU.

To Truly understand what another is saying, and meaning, you first have to know in what context they are using words, and to be able to know this you also need to know what definitions they are using for the words being used.

Obviously if you are going to use your own definitions, and meanings, for the words other people are using, then you are NOT going to Truly nor FULLY understand the other properly and correctly.

If God is cotton to you, then definitely a sock might be evidence of God per your conception, but then a pair of scissors probably wouldn't be (unless they're very unusual scissors made out of cotton).

Well that is one very twisted and distorted way of looking at this. But, then again, you do have a very strong agenda to fulfill and achieve, so a lot of distorting and twisting of thee actual Truth of things might be very necessary, on your part. We will just have to wait and see.

[Terrapin Station]

But, obviously if you do not yet know what God is, in the context to me, then my answer would make ABSOLUTELY NO SENSE AT ALL, TO YOU.

That's fine. Give the answer that would make "absolutely no sense to me."

I have zero interest in you explaining why you're not answering. Just give the answer already. If it doesn't make any sense to me that's fine.

[Sculptor1]

All "darwin" ever really did was just help in verifying just what is written in the bible, that is: Everything is created, which is evolving, which just means through evolution every thing is created. This is what is clearly written, and stated in the bible, as can be clearly SEEN and evidenced.

This is probably the dumbest most funny and stupid thing I have read all week!!
This is thigh slapping risible..

I love the way Darwin says that it was all created in 7 days! Amazing!!
And the bit about the flood - priceless!

And when Moses looks up to heaven and having thanked god for the 10 commandments, says "Thus, from the war of nature, from famine and death, the most exalted object which we are capable of conceiving, namely, the production of the higher animals, directly follows. There is grandeur in this view of life, with its several powers, having been originally breathed into a few forms or into one; and that, whilst this planet has gone cycling on according to the fixed law of gravity, from so simple a beginning endless forms most beautiful and most wonderful have been, and are being, evolved."
Yes, replies God, "A grain in the balance will determine which individual shall live and which shall die - which variety or species shall increase in number, and which shall decrease, or finally become extinct. But remember Moses you are but a Man. Man, however well-behaved,
At best is but a monkey shaved!"