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[UniversalAlien]

Again is Pornography Art? - But what is art, really what is it?

"Art is essentially the affirmation, the blessing, and the deification of existence."
- Friedrich Nietzsche

"One must give value to their existence by behaving as if ones very existence were a work of art."
- Friedrich Nietzsche

"The great end of art is to strike the imagination with the power of a soul that refuses to admit defeat even in the midst of a collapsing world."
- Friedrich Nietzsche

"The truth is ugly: we have art so as not to perish from the truth."
- Friedrich Nietzsche

"Art is not merely an imitation of the reality of nature, but in truth a metaphysical supplement to the reality of nature, placed alongside thereof for its conquest."
- Friedrich Nietzsche

And finally:

"... art approaches as a saving sorceress, expert at healing. She alone knows how to turn these nauseous thoughts about the horror or absurdity of existence into notions with which one can live."
- Friedrich Nietzsche



So I suppose you might say that all of Human interaction, all of History, might be considered obscene
and pornographic if it is shown and depicted one way - But shown and depicted another way it is fine art






“When you change the way you look at things, the things you look at change.”
― Max Planck

[Mark1955]

Art, like pornography, is a subjective topic. I enjoy erotic art, you look at smutty pictures and the bloke down the road is into porn. We all know our place in our own minds, although this may not be our place in the minds of others.

[Hereandnow]

Felix
You mean what you said about it being a means to an end? I would still say that such an ego-centric goal oriented attitude towards spiritual practice is a symptom of ignorance, it's not like training for a marathon or something.

The practice as I have understood it, involves the movement of shakti from a lower part of the spine to the top of the head. I have practiced this, I mean, not in any profound way, but with others who knew what they were doing: Sitting quietly doing nothing, then using your attention only (not looking with your eyes, e.g.) find that spot in the lower spine, then bring it up to the top of the head. The purpose of sex is to generate energy, then once, well, all excited, control it. I don't know where ego comes into it. It's just, as are all such Eastern spiritual ideas, a way of liberation. Liberation is the "end". Yoga is the means.

[Hereandnow]

UniversalAlien
"Art is essentially the affirmation, the blessing, and the deification of existence."
- Friedrich Nietzsche

"One must give value to their existence by behaving as if ones very existence were a work of art."
- Friedrich Nietzsche

"The great end of art is to strike the imagination with the power of a soul that refuses to admit defeat even in the midst of a collapsing world."
- Friedrich Nietzsche

"The truth is ugly: we have art so as not to perish from the truth."
- Friedrich Nietzsche

"Art is not merely an imitation of the reality of nature, but in truth a metaphysical supplement to the reality of nature, placed alongside thereof for its conquest."
- Friedrich Nietzsche

And finally:

"... art approaches as a saving sorceress, expert at healing. She alone knows how to turn these nauseous thoughts about the horror or absurdity of existence into notions with which one can live."
- Friedrich Nietzsche

Niezsche?? Why is N so authoritative?

So I suppose you might say that all of Human interaction, all of History, might be considered obscene
and pornographic if it is shown and depicted one way - But shown and depicted another way it is fine art

Yes, it is IN the depiction, the taking the object, persons, etc. AS art that makes for the possibility of art. Take de Vinci's Last Supper AS a place mat, and it's a place mat. You could look at the place mat and say, my how lovely; then, you could call it art. Fight off an assailant with it and it's a weapon.
But then, what is it exactly, that one does in calling it art? That is, if it's a weapon when used in such a way as weapons are used, what is it that makes for the "way" of art?

[UniversalAlien]

Hereandnow wrote:

......But then, what is it exactly, that one does in calling it art? That is, if it's a weapon when used in such a way as weapons are used, what is it that makes for the "way" of art?

True, but one of the most ever popular books I sold was 'The Art of War' - Considered a classic.

[UniversalAlien]

Now I want you to travel with me into a World yet to happen - Where people, Humanity, has grown up
- It learns to understand what the Erotic Nature of Man really means - Another words pornography comes to mean bad erotica - Or a poor Man's excuse for art - But Erotica in this future is considered more important than ever - It is worshiped for its level of sophistication and meaning - It is considered the highest form of
artistic expression.

In this World reality game shows, as are still popular on TV, as they are today - More popular than ever
- And the most popular show is "The Greatest Lovers Completion"

For this game show 5 couples, not necessarily particularly good looking, but all reasonable looking, are
chosen to see who can win the completion for 'best lovers' - Who shows the highest finesse and art in
lovemaking.

Like in the dance show competitions now so popular, the winners of each show, go on to the next show
and the last couple to win at the end gets, say one million dollars.

Would you consider this to be art? - Very erotic, X rated, but Art - True?

[Hereandnow]

UniversalAlien
Now I want you to travel with me into a World yet to happen - Where people, Humanity, has grown up
- It learns to understand what the Erotic Nature of Man really means - Another words pornography comes to mean bad erotica - Or a poor Man's excuse for art - But Erotica in this future is considered more important than ever - It is worshiped for its level of sophistication and meaning - It is considered the highest form of
artistic expression.

In this World reality game shows, as are still popular on TV, as they are today - More popular than ever
- And the most popular show is "The Greatest Lovers Completion"

For this game show 5 couples, not necessarily particularly good looking, but all reasonable looking, are
chosen to see who can win the completion for 'best lovers' - Who shows the highest finesse and art in
lovemaking.

Like in the dance show competitions now so popular, the winners of each show, go on to the next show
and the last couple to win at the end gets, say one million dollars.

Would you consider this to be art? - Very erotic, X rated, but Art - True?

Or, what if chicken soup were worshiped like this? Or foot massages? I would say that we could speculate freely about such things in possible worlds, but it is difficult to imagine how sex could as much art as art is in this world if I don't really know what art is in the first place. Is it just in the naming something "art"? Or in order for something to be art something has to have a certain nature, as to be a shoe something has to fit on the foot for walking? Are you suggesting that art really has no nature at all, and it can be anything if we can conceive of a possible world where the thing is called art? What does the term "art" do to something by calling it this? Is it some vacuous categorical designation?

[Terrapin Station]

What is interesting here - perhaps overlapping with a philosophy of psychology inquiry - is that the typical person would feel abnormal and think himself acting unethically if he indulged in the voyeurism we term "Peeping Tom," but he feels perfectly fine and within appropriate boundaries to indulge in the viewing of pornography. Here by pornography I am largely referring to the cinematic kind.

But perhaps the typical person - and his culture at large - tend to arrive at the conclusion pornography is art and therefore qualitatively different from the "Peeping Tome" indulgence?

Probably someone else mentioned this in 20 pages, but a big difference between pornography and being a Peeping Tom is that pornography is consensual. The people being looked at by a Peeping Tom are not consenting to being watched.

[Supine]

What is interesting here - perhaps overlapping with a philosophy of psychology inquiry - is that the typical person would feel abnormal and think himself acting unethically if he indulged in the voyeurism we term "Peeping Tom," but he feels perfectly fine and within appropriate boundaries to indulge in the viewing of pornography. Here by pornography I am largely referring to the cinematic kind.

But perhaps the typical person - and his culture at large - tend to arrive at the conclusion pornography is art and therefore qualitatively different from the "Peeping Tome" indulgence?

Probably someone else mentioned this in 20 pages, but a big difference between pornography and being a Peeping Tom is that pornography is consensual. The people being looked at by a Peeping Tom are not consenting to being watched.

True. But pornography is still voyeurism.

[Terrapin Station]

Probably someone else mentioned this in 20 pages, but a big difference between pornography and being a Peeping Tom is that pornography is consensual. The people being looked at by a Peeping Tom are not consenting to being watched.

True. But pornography is still voyeurism.

Sure. But most people who feel uncomfortable with being a "Peeping Tom" feel so because of the consent issue.

[Charlemagne]

Does pornography qualify as art?

But if pornography is indeed an art what kind of art is it, and are the effects positive or good? Can pornography when judged from a secular point of analysis even be an amoral or a-ethical issue?

The pornography I have seen does not qualify as an art. It might qualify as a craft to the extent that actors have to learn how to perform in the most salacious way possible.

But cinematic porn is really just a business in which people sell their bodies for money, by which it follows that porn is a form of prostitution.

Is prostitution moral, immoral, or amoral? I think it is immoral. I would certainly do everything in my power to dissuade my children from entering such a business. I have heard of parents who support their children in the business. Disgusting.

[LuckyR]

Does pornography qualify as art?

But if pornography is indeed an art what kind of art is it, and are the effects positive or good? Can pornography when judged from a secular point of analysis even be an amoral or a-ethical issue?

The pornography I have seen does not qualify as an art. It might qualify as a craft to the extent that actors have to learn how to perform in the most salacious way possible.

But cinematic porn is really just a business in which people sell their bodies for money, by which it follows that porn is a form of prostitution.

Is prostitution moral, immoral, or amoral? I think it is immoral. I would certainly do everything in my power to dissuade my children from entering such a business. I have heard of parents who support their children in the business. Disgusting.

Porn is to art as bestsellers are to literature. Not the same, but in the ballpark.

As to what I want my children to do for a living, that is too high of a bar. There are numerous jobs/professions that I don't want them to do that have no moral ambiguities.

[Charlemagne]

Does pornography qualify as art?

But if pornography is indeed an art what kind of art is it, and are the effects positive or good? Can pornography when judged from a secular point of analysis even be an amoral or a-ethical issue?

The pornography I have seen does not qualify as an art. It might qualify as a craft to the extent that actors have to learn how to perform in the most salacious way possible.

But cinematic porn is really just a business in which people sell their bodies for money, by which it follows that porn is a form of prostitution.

Is prostitution moral, immoral, or amoral? I think it is immoral. I would certainly do everything in my power to dissuade my children from entering such a business. I have heard of parents who support their children in the business. Disgusting.

As to what I want my children to do for a living, that is too high of a bar.


What I actually said was not what I want my children to do, but what I don't want them to do. I also don't want them to become swindlers or pedophiles.