Philosophy Discussion Forums | A Humans-Only Club for Open-Minded Discussion & Debate

[Belindi]

Sculptor wrote:

Objections to the causal nexus is that no such link is perceptible to the senses, or properly imaginable.

I guess Gary dismisses the causal nexus ontologically , not because we can't know any alternative.

My point is that we can't be living in the world and know an alternative to causation.True, some of us have an idea what eternity is, at least by means of analogies, but we don't actually live day in and day out as if eternity were the only attribute of being.

[GaryLouisSmith]

Sculptor wrote:

Objections to the causal nexus is that no such link is perceptible to the senses, or properly imaginable.

I guess Gary dismisses the causal nexus ontologically , not because we can't know any alternative.

My point is that we can't be living in the world and know an alternative to causation.True, some of us have an idea what eternity is, at least by means of analogies, but we don't actually live day in and day out as if eternity were the only attribute of being.

I think you are getting my idea that ontological things are totally separate from everyday life.

[Sculptor1]

Sculptor wrote:

Objections to the causal nexus is that no such link is perceptible to the senses, or properly imaginable.

I guess Gary dismisses the causal nexus ontologically , not because we can't know any alternative.

My point is that we can't be living in the world and know an alternative to causation.True, some of us have an idea what eternity is, at least by means of analogies, but we don't actually live day in and day out as if eternity were the only attribute of being.

Your response is completely opaque to me.
Where you drift off is "and know an alternative to causation". You might have to say what you mean by this.

[Sculptor1]

Sculptor wrote:



I guess Gary dismisses the causal nexus ontologically , not because we can't know any alternative.

My point is that we can't be living in the world and know an alternative to causation.True, some of us have an idea what eternity is, at least by means of analogies, but we don't actually live day in and day out as if eternity were the only attribute of being.

I think you are getting my idea that ontological things are totally separate from everyday life.

But that is the height of absurdity.
You are saying that everyday thinks don't exist.

[Ralfy]

Summa Theologica and other works might help.

[Belindi]

I think you are getting my idea that ontological things are totally separate from everyday life.

But that is the height of absurdity.
You are saying that everyday thinks don't exist.

What do you mean by 'exist'?
Is 'exist' applicable 1. only to material, physical, phenomena? Or is it 2. also applicable to fantasies,hallucinations, dreams, and wrong mathematical answers? or 3. is 'exist ' relatively applicable to all phenomena ?

[Sculptor1]

But that is the height of absurdity.
You are saying that everyday things don't exist.

What do you mean by 'exist'?
Is 'exist' applicable 1. only to material, physical, phenomena? Or is it 2. also applicable to fantasies,hallucinations, dreams, and wrong mathematical answers? or 3. is 'exist ' relatively applicable to all phenomena ?

"ontological" things, by definition, "exist".

[Belindi]

It's a minor lexical difference of opinion, Sculptor, Some people believe 'existence' applies only temporal being. Other people believe 'existence ' can be used of eternal being.

[Sy Borg]

I'd go with Gary insofar as we need to essentially conduct our lives like a racehorse wearing blinders. Life is a competition - for accommodation, resources, time and energy - and those who veer too far off will "lose", ie. suffer.

If you were truly in touch with the entirety of the reality in which you are immersed you could not function. Our evolved filters keep much of that confusing reality at bay. Our conditioned filters refine (ie. distort) our image of reality more. Then our personal, individual filters, eg. moralities, do the rest.

So we furiously follow our track, largely oblivious to the radiation, dust, microbes and water vapour around us at all times. Most of the information flows through and around us are filtered out too. That's why humanity built up a body of knowledge. Since we can't take everything in at once, we focus on very particular things and report our observations. That has left us with a more sophisticated abstract sense of reality, even if we remain viscerally limited.

If we are to look for God, we'd start with that which can't be explained by science. But that domain, of course, is the ever shrinking gap in which "gods of the gaps" reside. So faith is not about reason. Many try to rationalise backwards, but I am yet to see a convincing effort there.

Belief is not supposed to be rationalised IMO. Reality is a dance of energy and information. The dancer is energy and the dance is information. Belief is an emotional act, more energetic than informational.

[Haicoway]

Beliefs are ideas that people have that don't require proofs. Some people ardently believe that Trump is good for America, whilst many more people rabidly believe he isn't. There is not adequate proof yet for either belief.

And furthermore, proofs are beliefs. Science can prove things that get overturned, like when quantum mechanics came along.

I call myself agnostic, but I am scared of the idea of Hell. So somewhere in my brain I must believe in God.

[Belindi]

Beliefs are ideas that people have that don't require proofs. Some people ardently believe that Trump is good for America, whilst many more people rabidly believe he isn't. There is not adequate proof yet for either belief.

And furthermore, proofs are beliefs. Science can prove things that get overturned, like when quantum mechanics came along.

I call myself agnostic, but I am scared of the idea of Hell. So somewhere in my brain I must believe in God.

Which God made Hell? I daresay most people picture Hell as a fiery place of everlasting torture. When did that image originate and who originated it?

https://www.truthaccordingtoscripture.c ... a8MQOhKjcs

[Haicoway]

I tried to look that up, and saw that there are a lot of references to (by different names) it in several religions. It must be an archetype of the collective unconscious. I am working to try to make myself believe there isn't Hell, because if there is connected with the Christian religion, I could well end up there. But nothing I ever did that could get me there involved hurting another person - I just wanted to add. But if you are Christian, you can get there by not believing in the Christian God.

If some scholar on this forum knows how it got into the Christian religion, it would be great for me to learn it.

[Haicoway]

I contradicted myself by accident. If you are Christian you automatically believe in the Christian God. I mean if Christianity is the true religion, a person can go to Hell by not believing there is a Christian God.

[Felix]

Haicoway: If some scholar on this forum knows how it got into the Christian religion

Bible verses re: hell could be interpreted in a number of ways, and if they imply any material realm at all, that realm strongly resembles Earth. So then, Haicoway, you need not worry about going to Hell, you're already there. The alternative is eternal life and if you believe in reincarnation (as Jesus' cohorts the Essenes apparently did) you may get more than one shot at that. I would think that a fair and just God would give you more than one chance to make good before casting you into the cosmic recycling bin.

[Haicoway]

Thank you for the reassurance, Felix. I don't have long to live, and I am nervous. It would be grand to re-unite with my wife in Heaven, who died 2-1/2 years ago, but she was an atheist. So I thought it is possible that both of us could be cast to Hell. I would like to think there is nothing. So when I die, it will be like when my wife died, and there is nothing for either of us. We had a wonderful life of 53 years together. But I am just a little scared.

I don't need or want to be reincarnated. I've had enough of the universe.