Log In   or  Sign Up for Free

Philosophy Discussion Forums | A Humans-Only Club for Open-Minded Discussion & Debate

Humans-Only Club for Discussion & Debate

A one-of-a-kind oasis of intelligent, in-depth, productive, civil debate.

Topics are uncensored, meaning even extremely controversial viewpoints can be presented and argued for, but our Forum Rules strictly require all posters to stay on-topic and never engage in ad hominems or personal attacks.


Discuss philosophical questions regarding theism (and atheism), and discuss religion as it relates to philosophy. This includes any philosophical discussions that happen to be about god, gods, or a 'higher power' or the belief of them. This also generally includes philosophical topics about organized or ritualistic mysticism or about organized, common or ritualistic beliefs in the existence of supernatural phenomenon.
User avatar
By steveb1
#336153
[My own bias is that Christ Myth theory is not only credible, but that it is a nearly inevitable conclusion (and the wave of the future), given that the current state of data remains unchanged. Of course, as the cliche runs, "tomorrow we may find..." some record left by a first-generation disciple or, better yet, by a hostile witness to Jesus's supposed ministry. So I keep the historical Jesus on the back burner precisely because we cannot disprove Jesus's existence, and because an authentic discovery of it would invert Christ Myth theory.]

Core tenets of the theory:

1. The earliest known Christian texts - Paul's "seven authentic letters" - contain no unambiguous reference to a historical (or the Gospel) Jesus.
This is as remarkable as a book about Scientology never mentioning founder L. Ron Hubbard, or a book about the Gettysburg Address never mentioning Abraham Lincoln. It's not a matter of the cliched objection, "But Paul's letters were written as ad hoc crisis solutions, not biographies!", because Paul never mentions a historical Jesus at all - even when he could cite Jesus's example to sort out any number of church problems.

2. No non-Christian texts from the time in question survive, if indeed they existed in the first place. Had they existed, the two Jewish Wars would almost certainly have resulted in their loss or destruction.

3. Supposed non-Christian texts (both versions of Josephus for example) about Jesus are either scribal interpolations or forgeries; or they come far too late to shed any light on the historical Jesus. They consist of repetitions of things contemporary Christians were telling Hellenistic interlocutors what they believed about Jesus - beliefs that derived from proto-Gospel writings, not from venerable eyewitness testimony.

4. Proposition: "Jesus" was originally held to be a non-historical celestial angelic being - a preexistent, primordial "Son" who undertook a kind of "incarnation" - not on earth,but in the lower heavens, where he was "handed over" (either by God or by Satan) to the demonic "Powers and Principalities" who submitted him to suffering, death, burial (the heavens were held to contain gardens, temples, and even soil), and then raised by God.
Mythicism holds that the "Resurrection experience" on which earliest Christianity was founded consisted of private visions and revelations from the transcendental heavenly Christ - not from a resuscitated Jesus who had lived on earth. This was the original "Good News" or Gospel - the heavenly Jesus had defeated the Powers through his suffering, death and resurrection in the celestial realm.

5. Through a gradual process of "euhemerization", the previously spiritual Christ of Paul's letters was enhanced, solidified, reified - and eventually replaced in Christian theology - by a Gospel Jesus who was said to have lived on earth, chosen disciples, taught, performed cures and exorcisms, was a renewal movement founder within Judaism, a teacher of parables...and finally, an atoning blood sacrifice and risen savior (and coincidentally or not, the Passion Narratives just happen to be the earliest strata of the Gospels). Mark's Gospel is our first known account of this historicized Jesus.

6. Christ Myth theorists meet the common scholarly objection that mainstream exegetes' charge that Christ Myth is quirky and highly improbable with the retort that - as has been said about scientific discovery generally - "knowledge proceeds one funeral at a time". That is, Christ Myth's probity is not decided by committee or by popularity, but rather by critical historical procedures.

Two Questions:

That, in brief, is Christ Myth theory. If you are a historicist, the burden is on you to supply evidence of a historical Jesus without resorting to the insufficient sources mentioned above. Which leaves Paul's seven authentic letters as the primary source.
What do you think?

If you are a mythicist, the burden is on you to historically detail the putative euhemerization process mentioned above. Can you provide a "paper trail" that documents the evolution (devolution?) of Christ as a heavenly entity into a human being who lived on earth and at least part of whose story made its way into the Gospels?
That is, how did the Gospels become "history"?

I'm neither a scholar nor a historian, but I've been bitten by the Christ Myth "bug". I can't be a clearing house for a huge fund of Christ Myth information. My chief motive for this post is to see the issue kicked around - to see what readers think of this issue.
By anonymous66
#336188
Are you saying that there was no historical Jesus? Or that Jesus was not of the divine?

I was also really into the Christ myth theory for a while. I read and listened to Richard Carrier and Robert Price. In the end I came to the conclusion that while we may not know much about Jesus- he almost certainly existed. I'm partial to the theory that Jesus never actually claimed to be the Son of God, but rather the idea of his divinity was promoted after his death (I believe this is Bart Ehrman's position).
User avatar
By steveb1
#336189
Thanks for replying.

I do believe that the historical/Gospel Jesus is a literary construction rather than a real figure, but as I said in the OP, I'm willing to let potential future archaeological evidence change my mind.

The Jesus of Paul was not historical but if one believes in a sacred Transcendent, Paul's Jesus could be divine in the sense that the Word/Logos is divine in the Johannine literature - i.e., a preexistent primordial "Son", assigned agent of creation, firstborn of creation, first fruits of the general resurrection, heavenly Messiah. Even the historicized Gospels have the earthly Jesus nonetheless identify himself with the cloud-dwelling heavenly Son of Man, which certainly implies preexistence if not divinity.

Agreed that the Jewish proclamation of Jesus as Son of God was early and certainly opposed in spirit to the later Gentile church's invention of Jesus as "God the Son"...!
:)
User avatar
By LuckyR
#336196
There was supposed to be independent historical documentation of Jesus, as Saint Issa in India during the "lost years" between the ages of 13 and 29. These manuscripts were purportedly seen and translated by a westerner in the 1880s. Naturally this was viewed as heresy in the west and discounted out of hand, though it was also purportedly confirmed by easterners in the 1920s.

Of course these texts specifically make no claim to divinity, only scholarship.
By anonymous66
#336197
steveb1 wrote: August 17th, 2019, 8:59 pm Thanks for replying.

I do believe that the historical/Gospel Jesus is a literary construction rather than a real figure, but as I said in the OP, I'm willing to let potential future archaeological evidence change my mind.

The Jesus of Paul was not historical but if one believes in a sacred Transcendent, Paul's Jesus could be divine in the sense that the Word/Logos is divine in the Johannine literature - i.e., a preexistent primordial "Son", assigned agent of creation, firstborn of creation, first fruits of the general resurrection, heavenly Messiah. Even the historicized Gospels have the earthly Jesus nonetheless identify himself with the cloud-dwelling heavenly Son of Man, which certainly implies preexistence if not divinity.

Agreed that the Jewish proclamation of Jesus as Son of God was early and certainly opposed in spirit to the later Gentile church's invention of Jesus as "God the Son"...!
:)
Are you willing to apply the same critical standard to other ancient historical figures? If so, who else have you discarded as a "literary construction"?

The near-unanimous agreement among classicists and historians (that Jesus existed) is compelling. And the arguments for myth- not so much.
User avatar
By steveb1
#336203
LuckyR wrote: August 17th, 2019, 11:10 pm There was supposed to be independent historical documentation of Jesus, as Saint Issa in India during the "lost years" between the ages of 13 and 29. These manuscripts were purportedly seen and translated by a westerner in the 1880s. Naturally this was viewed as heresy in the west and discounted out of hand, though it was also purportedly confirmed by easterners in the 1920s.

Of course these texts specifically make no claim to divinity, only scholarship.
If those texts could be scientifically documented, it would help establish historicity for sure.
User avatar
By steveb1
#336204
Are you willing to apply the same critical standard to other ancient historical figures? If so, who else have you discarded as a "literary construction"?

The near-unanimous agreement among classicists and historians (that Jesus existed) is compelling. And the arguments for myth- not so much.
The subject is the historicity of Jesus. Not other figures of the past.

The burden is on historicists to prove Jesus's existence. Sadly for them, historicism has failed.

As I said, Paul is our earliest Christian source who was supposedly beginning his mission some 3-4 years after Jesus's supposed crucifixion, yet he doesn't mention him at all. That is a glaring silence and speaks poorly for the historicist position.

And as I said, agreement among scholars is meaningless. It's the search for evidence that matters, and the serious search for him has utterly failed.

Had you read my entire OP, you would realize that I don't discard Jesus as a literary construction. I said that the evidence points to him being such, but I also said that I'm willing to change my position if new data is acquired.
User avatar
By Felix
#336213
steveb1: I do believe that the historical/Gospel Jesus is a literary construction rather than a real figure, but as I said in the OP, I'm willing to let potential future archaeological evidence change my mind.
Where have you been? We've had the archaeological evidence that Jesus existed since the 1940's when the Nag Hammadi Scriptures, a.k.a., Gnostic gospels, were discovered in Egypt.
User avatar
By dawwg
#336223
Sculptor1 wrote: August 18th, 2019, 5:47 am As Billy Butcher says in The Boys
"If there is a God, he must be a right C*nt, giving all those kids cancer."


Allowing for vanity as a self-evident priori there are hidden things in the world.

Take for example the use of symbolism in esotericism:

Image

I present to you a symbol in the presence of Chinese wiring color code, the wiring color code of the West, and the fable of the Mighty Quinn (song by Bob Dylan)

Image

Here you may discern the use of the black wire as neutral in the Chinese color code. Black, in the West, is the designation of a 'Hot' wire.

The 'Hot' wire or power source of "Quinn The Eskimo" I profess is green (for Greenland) and White (mighty white of you) and Blue (Law) make up his 3-phase power supply.

Consider the following case for the cure for global carbon emissions. The West, black, is counting on the blood of Jesus to be the answer to their problems which maybe a fortuitous coincidence if you see what I mean with China, Red, maybe having other ideas.

How does this relate to the ills of the world you may ask, and the obvious answer is in the color of the power supply.
User avatar
By Sculptor1
#336230
dawwg wrote: August 18th, 2019, 12:08 pm
Sculptor1 wrote: August 18th, 2019, 5:47 am As Billy Butcher says in The Boys
"If there is a God, he must be a right C*nt, giving all those kids cancer."


Allowing for vanity as a self-evident priori there are hidden things in the world.



Yeah right. Most c*unts remain hidden.
User avatar
By Sculptor1
#336231
dawwg wrote: August 18th, 2019, 12:08 pm
Sculptor1 wrote: August 18th, 2019, 5:47 am As Billy Butcher says in The Boys
"If there is a God, he must be a right C*nt, giving all those kids cancer."


Allowing for vanity as a self-evident priori there are hidden things in the world.


But although most c*nts are hidden. It takes a diabolically rank sort of c*unt to give child cancer
User avatar
By dawwg
#336234
Sculptor1 wrote: August 18th, 2019, 1:50 pm Yeah right. Most c*unts remain hidden.
Tsk, tsk, one might note a prejudice.
The fact that this word is considered to be the most offensive swear word in the English language, and yet actually has the highest, most sacred origin, is just another sign of how distorted everything is in today's society...

It is believed that the word ‘C/nt’ came from the Proto German word ‘Kunto’ which is said to have come from the Indo-European word ‘Kunti’ which is the name of a much respected and revered Hindu goddess who was also known as ‘Cunti-Devi’ and is said to be the ruler of ‘Kunta’ which we know as ‘Kundalini’ energy. The snake like feminine energy that travels up our spine. Legend stories say how she sang to the gods to call them to sleep with her. She eventually had a son with the Sun God, Surya and ‘The Teachings of Queen Kunti’ can still be read today.

Many say that ‘C/nt’ derived from the Oriental Great Goddess Cunti, also known in ancient Hinduism as the ‘Yoni of the Universe’ (yoni means ‘sacred temple’ in Sanskrit and is used to describe the womb and c/nt). Also Indian children who were born out of wedlock were know as ‘Kuntas’ and revered as gifts of the Goddess Kunti’. The word ‘Kunda’ is also used in India for a hole or pit in the ground (agni-kunda, fire-pit) for storing fire on alters in the Vedic religion.


Full article: http://fishcalledsanda.blogspot.com/201 ... n-and.html
User avatar
By Felix
#336235
Sculptor1 said: It takes a diabolically rank sort of c*unt to give child cancer.
Well, "give" is an overly anthropomorphic indictment, "make it possible" is the most one can say, especially since most cancer appears to be a byproduct of human folly, i.e., man-made toxins and pollution. It would be more accurate to say the purveyors of those poisons are giving children cancer.

But as Woody Allen said, "If God exists, I hope he has a good excuse."
User avatar
By dawwg
#336238
Felix wrote: August 18th, 2019, 2:15 pm But as Woody Allen said, "If God exists, I hope he has a good excuse."
Who bears the burden of an excuse?

You want a two dimensional existence or 3 dimensional?

Ok you opted for three dimensions. Now you have free will in the execution of a compassionate response to someone in extreme pain but you do nothing.
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
  • 10

Current Philosophy Book of the Month

The Riddle of Alchemy

The Riddle of Alchemy
by Paul Kiritsis
January 2025

2025 Philosophy Books of the Month

On Spirits: The World Hidden Volume II

On Spirits: The World Hidden Volume II
by Dr. Joseph M. Feagan
April 2025

Escape to Paradise and Beyond (Tentative)

Escape to Paradise and Beyond (Tentative)
by Maitreya Dasa
March 2025

They Love You Until You Start Thinking for Yourself

They Love You Until You Start Thinking for Yourself
by Monica Omorodion Swaida
February 2025

The Riddle of Alchemy

The Riddle of Alchemy
by Paul Kiritsis
January 2025

2024 Philosophy Books of the Month

Connecting the Dots: Ancient Wisdom, Modern Science

Connecting the Dots: Ancient Wisdom, Modern Science
by Lia Russ
December 2024

The Advent of Time: A Solution to the Problem of Evil...

The Advent of Time: A Solution to the Problem of Evil...
by Indignus Servus
November 2024

Reconceptualizing Mental Illness in the Digital Age

Reconceptualizing Mental Illness in the Digital Age
by Elliott B. Martin, Jr.
October 2024

Zen and the Art of Writing

Zen and the Art of Writing
by Ray Hodgson
September 2024

How is God Involved in Evolution?

How is God Involved in Evolution?
by Joe P. Provenzano, Ron D. Morgan, and Dan R. Provenzano
August 2024

Launchpad Republic: America's Entrepreneurial Edge and Why It Matters

Launchpad Republic: America's Entrepreneurial Edge and Why It Matters
by Howard Wolk
July 2024

Quest: Finding Freddie: Reflections from the Other Side

Quest: Finding Freddie: Reflections from the Other Side
by Thomas Richard Spradlin
June 2024

Neither Safe Nor Effective

Neither Safe Nor Effective
by Dr. Colleen Huber
May 2024

Now or Never

Now or Never
by Mary Wasche
April 2024

Meditations

Meditations
by Marcus Aurelius
March 2024

Beyond the Golden Door: Seeing the American Dream Through an Immigrant's Eyes

Beyond the Golden Door: Seeing the American Dream Through an Immigrant's Eyes
by Ali Master
February 2024

The In-Between: Life in the Micro

The In-Between: Life in the Micro
by Christian Espinosa
January 2024

2023 Philosophy Books of the Month

Entanglement - Quantum and Otherwise

Entanglement - Quantum and Otherwise
by John K Danenbarger
January 2023

Mark Victor Hansen, Relentless: Wisdom Behind the Incomparable Chicken Soup for the Soul

Mark Victor Hansen, Relentless: Wisdom Behind the Incomparable Chicken Soup for the Soul
by Mitzi Perdue
February 2023

Rediscovering the Wisdom of Human Nature: How Civilization Destroys Happiness

Rediscovering the Wisdom of Human Nature: How Civilization Destroys Happiness
by Chet Shupe
March 2023

The Unfakeable Code®

The Unfakeable Code®
by Tony Jeton Selimi
April 2023

The Book: On the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are

The Book: On the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are
by Alan Watts
May 2023

Killing Abel

Killing Abel
by Michael Tieman
June 2023

Reconfigurement: Reconfiguring Your Life at Any Stage and Planning Ahead

Reconfigurement: Reconfiguring Your Life at Any Stage and Planning Ahead
by E. Alan Fleischauer
July 2023

First Survivor: The Impossible Childhood Cancer Breakthrough

First Survivor: The Impossible Childhood Cancer Breakthrough
by Mark Unger
August 2023

Predictably Irrational

Predictably Irrational
by Dan Ariely
September 2023

Artwords

Artwords
by Beatriz M. Robles
November 2023

Fireproof Happiness: Extinguishing Anxiety & Igniting Hope

Fireproof Happiness: Extinguishing Anxiety & Igniting Hope
by Dr. Randy Ross
December 2023

2022 Philosophy Books of the Month

Emotional Intelligence At Work

Emotional Intelligence At Work
by Richard M Contino & Penelope J Holt
January 2022

Free Will, Do You Have It?

Free Will, Do You Have It?
by Albertus Kral
February 2022

My Enemy in Vietnam

My Enemy in Vietnam
by Billy Springer
March 2022

2X2 on the Ark

2X2 on the Ark
by Mary J Giuffra, PhD
April 2022

The Maestro Monologue

The Maestro Monologue
by Rob White
May 2022

What Makes America Great

What Makes America Great
by Bob Dowell
June 2022

The Truth Is Beyond Belief!

The Truth Is Beyond Belief!
by Jerry Durr
July 2022

Living in Color

Living in Color
by Mike Murphy
August 2022 (tentative)

The Not So Great American Novel

The Not So Great American Novel
by James E Doucette
September 2022

Mary Jane Whiteley Coggeshall, Hicksite Quaker, Iowa/National Suffragette And Her Speeches

Mary Jane Whiteley Coggeshall, Hicksite Quaker, Iowa/National Suffragette And Her Speeches
by John N. (Jake) Ferris
October 2022

In It Together: The Beautiful Struggle Uniting Us All

In It Together: The Beautiful Struggle Uniting Us All
by Eckhart Aurelius Hughes
November 2022

The Smartest Person in the Room: The Root Cause and New Solution for Cybersecurity

The Smartest Person in the Room
by Christian Espinosa
December 2022

2021 Philosophy Books of the Month

The Biblical Clock: The Untold Secrets Linking the Universe and Humanity with God's Plan

The Biblical Clock
by Daniel Friedmann
March 2021

Wilderness Cry: A Scientific and Philosophical Approach to Understanding God and the Universe

Wilderness Cry
by Dr. Hilary L Hunt M.D.
April 2021

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute: Tools To Spark Your Dream And Ignite Your Follow-Through

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute
by Jeff Meyer
May 2021

Surviving the Business of Healthcare: Knowledge is Power

Surviving the Business of Healthcare
by Barbara Galutia Regis M.S. PA-C
June 2021

Winning the War on Cancer: The Epic Journey Towards a Natural Cure

Winning the War on Cancer
by Sylvie Beljanski
July 2021

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream
by Dr Frank L Douglas
August 2021

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts
by Mark L. Wdowiak
September 2021

The Preppers Medical Handbook

The Preppers Medical Handbook
by Dr. William W Forgey M.D.
October 2021

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress: A Practical Guide

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress
by Dr. Gustavo Kinrys, MD
November 2021

Dream For Peace: An Ambassador Memoir

Dream For Peace
by Dr. Ghoulem Berrah
December 2021


Personal responsibility

Right. “What are the choices? Grin, bear it, issue[…]

Emergence can't do that!!

I'm woefully ignorant about the scientific techn[…]

Q. What happens to a large country that stops gath[…]

How do I apply with you for the review job involve[…]