Philosophy Discussion Forums | A Humans-Only Club for Open-Minded Discussion & Debate

[Thinking critical]

As a scientist, I am wondering what such a proof would consist of.

In science a theory is accepted until proven wrong. No theory can be ultimately proven since there will always be time to prove it wrong. So, science`works by trying to disprove theories. That is the scientific method. A hypothesis (or theory) followed by an experiment, followed by data interpretation to see if the hypothesis needs to be modified or even discarded.

And a theory which is not falsifiable is called pseudoscience, this being the domain of any science which makes claims for the existence of gods.

So,can god prove himself mathematically? Many modern scientists claim that God must be a mathematician. Just take a look at supersymmetry and one sees the beautiful hand of God. At least so I am told by fellow scientists. God is also a magician. Just take a look at quantum entanglement. God is a creator if one believes in the Big Bang or evolution.

Magic? Magic is the illusion created from lack of knowledge or understanding when observing an event, so if this refers to the origin of life and the Universe, yeah sure why not. However if by magic you are referring to acts in the realm of miracles in which the laws of physics are momentarily suspended, then this would be a philosophy if ignorance. Intellectual honesty would lead us to say "we just don't know".

Now, I know what you are thinking. That’s not God! It is... It is... It is just the way thing are! Or, it is a mechanical nature. Really, mechanical? Well, that would make us divine by having escaped the mechanical. How did we do that exactly? Is there some kind of transition process that we bought somewhere?

Now you are simply critiquing your own strawman, how is it exactly that you believe we think the Universe and life came into existence?

[Big Boss]

As an atheist, the obvious answer is because he doesn't exist. That is neither funny nor original so I will try to provide a rational answer.

It seems odd to ask this question of a supreme being who we wouldn't know the nature of. They could just not find revealing themselves to be fun. They could be a voyeur and enjoy watching. The universe could, as many theorise, filled with many intelligent beings. Maybe God would rather reveal him/herself to some other 'higher' or maybe 'lower' intelligent civilisation of a different planet.

[Darshan]

Earthellism explains God proves his existence every day. There is no hell below us but hell is the surface of earth and heaven above us. God exists in heaven and does not exist in hell. God proves his existence by radiating his love down to us every second. Every baby born is a child of God whose smile is from God. Recently it was discovered that Mozart's music and other perfect compositions are dictated by God and the God sends his music through these artists. God is the creator and sustains love which is radiated from heaven to earthell here. Human devils are here on earthell who commit school shootings and mass murder every day. Only earthellism solves the problem of evil. Finally God and heaven is above us and protects us from asteroids that should have wiped us out hundreds of thousands of years ago.

[LuckyR]

Earthellism explains God proves his existence every day. There is no hell below us but hell is the surface of earth and heaven above us. God exists in heaven and does not exist in hell. God proves his existence by radiating his love down to us every second. Every baby born is a child of God whose smile is from God. Recently it was discovered that Mozart's music and other perfect compositions are dictated by God and the God sends his music through these artists. God is the creator and sustains love which is radiated from heaven to earthell here. Human devils are here on earthell who commit school shootings and mass murder every day. Only earthellism solves the problem of evil. Finally God and heaven is above us and protects us from asteroids that should have wiped us out hundreds of thousands of years ago.

Wow, who made that discovery?

[Darshan]

First said in the movie Amadeus 34 years ago but clear to musicians and songwriters everywhere. Certain music compositions are truly perfect and humans are imperfect. We say certain musicians are gifted like Mozart but that really means that God gifts them with special abilities to hear songs and melodies in their head which they write on paper. As said in Amadeus 34 years ago, some songs/compositions appears dictated by God. Any lover and student of classical music and opera knows certain compositions are timeless and can be heard over and over for forever with the same goosebumps on each hearing.

[Sy Borg]

Lucky, he was referring to personal discovery but misleadingly used the language of objective discovery.

Mozart's music is not perfect - that is movie talk, of course. Otherwise, why listen to anything else if the music only captures in part what Mozart captured in entirety? In truth, it is just superbly composed and arranged music, as is the music of numerous others.

Many claimed the same of Bach. Some would say that Steely Dan, Jethro Tull, Joni Mitchell or Pink Floyd played perfect music - excellent both musically and lyrically. Others would say that John Coltrane was inspired by God, or Charlie Parker has captured something of God.

It's an easy claim.

[LuckyR]

Hhmmm... If I was going to ascribe something to a vastly superior being (compared to humans) I would choose something that humans cannot create. Music doesn't fit that description.

[Darshan]

Earthellism explains why God doesn't prove himself. Very simply God is not here. God is in Heaven and we are on Earthell. God's Love is here but not God himself. As noted in the book "The Life and Death of Planet Earth" and "Diary of Anne Frank" Heaven is not here but above us in the skies/clouds/atmosphere/stratosphere all above us. If God was here, this would be Heaven. Jesus Christ was sent here to Earthell to explain to us that Heaven exists above us. Christ's torture and murder on the cross was a journey through Earthell with a return to be reunited with God in Heaven. We will never see God here and atheist use this to try to prove there is no God. God is the creator and sustains Love which radiates down here on Earthell.

[eyesofastranger]

Earthell is a simplified Lutheran belief that is based on the "existential dilemma" We're not human animals but something more. Cave men looked up and saw Philly cream cheese and down was the Cadbury secret in the red tar.
The life and death of the planet Earth caught 4 minutes of my attention, Ya it's the gripping story of the sun going red giant in 4 1/2 billion years. Squids when our society and philosophy is that old I don't expect to even be able to communicate with your being. This stuff does captivate him and keeps this thread going.

[Binyamin7]

If there is a god, why doesn't he prove that he exists? Why does he leave us without any compelling evidence of his existence?

If God appeared to you and told you He was God, you did not exist for eternity and cannot see the future so how would you know He was eternal? Unless you yourself are all knowing, how could you determine if He is all knowing? Because of our limitations there is no way for us to even have these things proven to us completely.

God has, however, given us ample evidence of His design. How? The fact that we exist is proof, because it would be easier for us to not exist. Time exists, how can it be created by anything under it's dominion (no amount of mass can avoid it's restrictions, and everything depends on it to exist and develop).

[LuckyR]

If there is a god, why doesn't he prove that he exists? Why does he leave us without any compelling evidence of his existence?

If God appeared to you and told you He was God, you did not exist for eternity and cannot see the future so how would you know He was eternal? Unless you yourself are all knowing, how could you determine if He is all knowing? Because of our limitations there is no way for us to even have these things proven to us completely.

God has, however, given us ample evidence of His design. How? The fact that we exist is proof, because it would be easier for us to not exist. Time exists, how can it be created by anything under it's dominion (no amount of mass can avoid it's restrictions, and everything depends on it to exist and develop).

Ah, but evidence is not necessarily proof. What I am a little confused about is: does proof or the lack of proof make believers feel better?

[Binyamin7]

If God appeared to you and told you He was God, you did not exist for eternity and cannot see the future so how would you know He was eternal? Unless you yourself are all knowing, how could you determine if He is all knowing? Because of our limitations there is no way for us to even have these things proven to us completely.

God has, however, given us ample evidence of His design. How? The fact that we exist is proof, because it would be easier for us to not exist. Time exists, how can it be created by anything under it's dominion (no amount of mass can avoid it's restrictions, and everything depends on it to exist and develop).

Ah, but evidence is not necessarily proof. What I am a little confused about is: does proof or the lack of proof make believers feel better?

Au Contraire if we see everything exists, which it does, and it had extremely complex designs, which it does, by everything we observe for certain that implies a Designer. We have never seen any spontaneous generation of matter, or any mutations that developed an increase in genetic information.

Therefore the burden of proof has to be upon those who claim no designer at all, not on those who assume complex organized orderly things could only be created- which is proven by all observable and testable sciences. How could a brilliant scientist try to create the simplest forms of life in a lab, and so far we have failed al la Miller exp, prove it doesn't take Intelligence anyway?

The more we learn the more the evidence looks to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that we have a Creator, but many will always doubt unreasonably.

[LuckyR]

Ah, but evidence is not necessarily proof. What I am a little confused about is: does proof or the lack of proof make believers feel better?

Au Contraire if we see everything exists, which it does, and it had extremely complex designs, which it does, by everything we observe for certain that implies a Designer. We have never seen any spontaneous generation of matter, or any mutations that developed an increase in genetic information.

Therefore the burden of proof has to be upon those who claim no designer at all, not on those who assume complex organized orderly things could only be created- which is proven by all observable and testable sciences. How could a brilliant scientist try to create the simplest forms of life in a lab, and so far we have failed al la Miller exp, prove it doesn't take Intelligence anyway?

The more we learn the more the evidence looks to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that we have a Creator, but many will always doubt unreasonably.

The fields of biology, paleontology and cosmology are progressing quite nicely with or without cloud fairies and your endorsement/understanding, thank you very much.

[Binyamin7]

Au Contraire if we see everything exists, which it does, and it had extremely complex designs, which it does, by everything we observe for certain that implies a Designer. We have never seen any spontaneous generation of matter, or any mutations that developed an increase in genetic information.

Therefore the burden of proof has to be upon those who claim no designer at all, not on those who assume complex organized orderly things could only be created- which is proven by all observable and testable sciences. How could a brilliant scientist try to create the simplest forms of life in a lab, and so far we have failed al la Miller exp, prove it doesn't take Intelligence anyway?

The more we learn the more the evidence looks to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that we have a Creator, but many will always doubt unreasonably.

The fields of biology, paleontology and cosmology are progressing quite nicely with or without cloud fairies and your endorsement/understanding, thank you very much.

When confronted with the order and beauty of the universe and the strange coincidences of nature, it's very tempting to take the leap of faith from science into religion. I am sure many physicists want to. I only wish they would admit it. Theoretical Physicist Tony Rothman

All the sciences have found that every aspect of our existence is far more complex than anyone could have ever imagined 150 years ago, or even 75. We have eliminated the steady state theory, forgotten the days when we thought there was such a thing as a "simple cell" filled with just plasma, and uncovered DNA which has proven to be unlike anything we could have ever managed to dream of. The processes of DNA are by any metric absolutely incredible and mind boggling.

[Fdesilva]

If there is a god, why doesn't he prove that he exists? Why does he leave us without any compelling evidence of his existence?

You are asking why does God not prove himself. This implies that you believe in the existence of proof but not a proof giver. Why do you ask for a proof? Is it because you know proof exist eternally? Proofs can exist only in minds. Therefore for proofs to be eternal there needs to be an eternal Mind.