Philosophy Discussion Forums | A Humans-Only Club for Open-Minded Discussion & Debate

[Hereandnow]

And she experienced nirvana, she says. Now, a person could be having delusions and hallucinations with a troubled brain, of course, and if she said she believed she were Napoleon then we could just dismiss the whole thing. But you can't hallucinate or be deluded in bliss. The question of nirvana being real is not some metaphysical idea, it's just how one "feels". I take her to be of the same ilk as near death experiencers. They all have weird stories, buy when they talk about how the quality of their experience, there is no mistaking this.

It puts a presumption in favor of their stories' credibility.

[Eduk]

I think you can delude yourself into bliss. I believe a number of drugs famously do this?

[Hereandnow]

If drug induces bliss, how is it the lesser?

[Sy Borg]

Because a drug induced bliss is unearned, achieved without credit - self indulgence lacking in hard work, dedication and contribution.

We are so very programmed (not referring to Eduk here, but speaking generally) to be good productive units that many of us cannot bear the idea of allowing ourselves "off the leash" for even a moment. What is this self indulgence?? Get healthy! Get back to work!

However, there will always be ratbags on the fringes who don't care about faddish societal opinion, who ultimately provide the creativity that the mainstream utilises and needs to prevent stagnation.

[Eduk]

Bit confused Greta. Can't work out your position on drug use in general. Personally I see no creativity achieved with drug use that is superior to creativity achieved without.

[Eduk]

Han I was going to respond as Greta's first sentence does. See brave new world for details.
But on second thoughts achieving a state of bliss purely through willing yourself to be in a state of bliss isn't too far removed. Obviously it requires a good amount of self control, so that's a good thing, but ultimately it's still fake and hollow.

[Karpel Tunnel]

What would be real and full? as a route to bliss.

[Eduk]

Children, reciprocal love, hard work, good morals, high standards, perspective, consciousness and empathy. I think by my definition bliss is not something you can be in a constant state of, but for example when your child is new born you may hold them and experience bliss for a time.
Perhaps I am misusing the term bliss though, as it could be interpreted differently.

[Karpel Tunnel]

Children, reciprocal love, hard work, good morals, high standards, perspective, consciousness and empathy. I think by my definition bliss is not something you can be in a constant state of, but for example when your child is new born you may hold them and experience bliss for a time.
Perhaps I am misusing the term bliss though, as it could be interpreted differently.

Yes, in the context of nirvana, which is supposed to be stabilized only after decades of extreme discipline.
But then if the forms of real bliss that You mention are temporary what makes them more valid?

[Eduk]

I would argue that concentrating on being blissful until the point where you are blissful is mostly unearned and therefore of no true value. For example is bliss the end goal in life or is it the actions which lead to bliss which are of real value? Or to put it another way. Should I avoid pain or should I avoid stepping on nails which lead to pain?

[Burning ghost]

You cannot concentrate on being “blissful” if you’ve no idea or experience of “bliss”.

Of course in common parse we use the term “bliss” differently.

[Karpel Tunnel]

I would argue that concentrating on being blissful until the point where you are blissful is mostly unearned and therefore of no true value. For example is bliss the end goal in life or is it the actions which lead to bliss which are of real value? Or to put it another way. Should I avoid pain or should I avoid stepping on nails which lead to pain?

I don't know any effective approaches where you focus on bliss. With nirvana in the Buddhist traditions you are certainly not focusing your practice on bliss, but rather on what you experience when not moving (mostly) and this will certainly include a lot of pain, emotional and physical.

But I am not sure where the idea that we must earn bliss comes from? Have children earned the bliss they feel? Are they cheating somehow?

[Hereandnow]

Eduk:
Han I was going to respond as Greta's first sentence does. See brave new world for details.
But on second thoughts achieving a state of bliss purely through willing yourself to be in a state of bliss isn't too far removed. Obviously it requires a good amount of self control, so that's a good thing, but ultimately it's still fake and hollow.

Soma?
Well, first of all, I don't think the "bliss" of music or walking down a country road is hollow. These come to us freely. Falling in love, feet six inches off the ground?

As to Greta's comment, I read Dewey and he is good on this, he is in her corner: work, good work with a beginning and a consummation, is what joy is all about. I disagree. I think the joy of completing work is a satisfying, but nowhere within parsecs of nirvana or love.

As to Soma: what is the difference between brain chemistry and induced brain chemistry. We assess the quality ofthe one former in terms of manifest appearance, the way things feel and disclose the world. How is it the being induced by a pharmaceutical catalyst should be assessed differently?

[Eduk]

I think the joy of completing work is a satisfying, but nowhere within parsecs of nirvana or love.

You clearly don't love your job then.

As to Soma: what is the difference between brain chemistry and induced brain chemistry. We assess the quality ofthe one former in terms of manifest appearance, the way things feel and disclose the world. How is it the being induced by a pharmaceutical catalyst should be assessed differently?

Yes. What is the difference from being plugged into the Matrix eating steak and actually eating steak. Although I instantly wish not to be in Matrix, it is difficult to say exactly why.
My nail example was supposed to be an attempt to explain the difference. For example if we feel good but for the wrong reasons and then find out those reasons were wrong we instantly lose this good feeling. In this sense our good feeling, which seemed real to us, is hollow and easily destroyed.

[Hereandnow]

Karpel Tunnel:
But I am not sure where the idea that we must earn bliss comes from? Have children earned the bliss they feel? Are they cheating somehow?

Interesting: Of course, having bliss requires one to survive in teh first place, and the way the world is set up, survival depends on work. Here is an odd twist on this: I am no fan of myths and legends, but thematically, the bible pins down issues that are central in identifying what we are about. Adam is cast out of Eden for his sins and thereby we have an etiological account of why humans are burdened with work.

Skip the the story. These ancient people understood that THIS was a major feature of the human condition: being cast out of the Bliss of fetal nirvana, the pleasure principle, if you will, contained in an eventless horizon, thrown kicking and screaming into hard labor and suffering.

Now, I am no metaphysician, but there is prima facie evidence that earning bliss is a fundamental part of being human. But also, bliss does not always arrive on the heels of work. We seem to be hard wired for it; even cats staring into space are in some way IN it (I surmise). Perhaps the passive bliss, let's call it, is evolved bliss, as hands and feet are there, simply; and perhaps it is something such that being hard wired in us is more broadly understood as something in the universe disclosing itself when work is transcended in leisure time. It was Aristotle who said philosophy is born out of leisure time.

Philosophy? Bliss? Buddhism? I think Buddhists were and are far ahead of their time: The idea is to transcend the world of work to aspire to bliss.