Philosophy Discussion Forums | A Humans-Only Club for Open-Minded Discussion & Debate

[Thinking critical]

I don't see how James Randi is relevant to a conversation about healing practitioners, unless they claim they can raise the dead or something. Could he tell you if someone is a genuine acupuncturist or psychologist?

Yet still, not one person ever rose to the occasion to prove the rational mind of the sceptics wrong. Why do you think that is?

Don't know what Randi's stipulations are, what sort of claims he will or won't examine. In the case of intuition, it doesn't seem to be something that one can call up at will, so it's not surprising that those who claim they can do so are found to be frauds.

The challenge would vary depending on the specific claim of the individual. He has debunked so called mediums, astrologers, people who claim to have telepathy, telekinesis, fortune tellers and so forth.
Intuition is not a supernatural ability, there are completely valid explanations which demonstrate how intuition functions. All humans have a instinct driven intuitive aspect to there nature so of course there is no need to investigate it.

Actpuncture is a silly mystic airy fairy practice which utilises two pyscological aspects of the human mind to get a less than average success rate.
First is the placebo effect, the pyscological misdirection of the mind and second is the nature of the situation. When people go to actupuncture clinics they are taking a break from there everyday routine to lay down in quiet, relaxed environment with slow music, dimmed lighting or candles maybe some form of incense whilst in the presence of a practitioner who touching the body (soft skin to skin) while talking and listening to there patient. In other words it is the environment which the patient is absorbed in which de stresses the mind and lowers the heart rate (healthy mind) not the actual needles in the body which were traditionally used to even out the energy flow through the body which the chineese believed caused disease.

[Eduk]

I'm not attacking modern medicine but it's useless and it directly caused alternative medicine. I don't know, maybe I am attacking modern medicine actually.

[LuckyR]

Attack away, but I hope you don't get appendicitis.

[Sy Borg]

If we have appendicitis then we shall be grateful for modern medicine.

If we have GORD, TMJ, arthritis, bulging disks, neck and back pain, etc etc etc then we shall be grateful if we don't waste a fortune on doctors and their specialists without satisfactory answers.

[Felix]

TC, it's clear from your comments that you've never had an acupuncture treatment.

Thinking critical: When people go to acupuncture clinics they are taking a break from their everyday routine to lay down in quiet, relaxed environment with slow music, dimmed lighting or candles maybe some form of incense whilst in the presence of a practitioner who touching the body (soft skin to skin) while talking and listening to there patient.

You do know that acupuncture entails having needles stuck in you? (acu-puncture). There is no touching or talking at all during the treatment, one does of course converse with the acupuncturist before treatment. I don't know many people who would find being stuck with needles to be a relaxing experience. As far as it's efficacy , it is reputed to be good for pain relief, there are medical doctors who have adopted it just for that purpose.

I met a lady who was kicked in the head by a horse, and prescription pain killers did not anesthetize her severe nerve pain. Acupuncture was the only thing that helped her. Don't see how that could be a placebo effect (or stictly one), especially considering she had no reason to think it would help her but was willing to try it.

The problem of course is that it's impossible to do double-blind studies on a practice that involves sticking needles in people.

[Karpel Tunnel]

TC, it's clear from your comments that you've never had an acupuncture treatment.

Thinking critical: When people go to acupuncture clinics they are taking a break from their everyday routine to lay down in quiet, relaxed environment with slow music, dimmed lighting or candles maybe some form of incense whilst in the presence of a practitioner who touching the body (soft skin to skin) while talking and listening to there patient.

You do know that acupuncture entails having needles stuck in you? (acu-puncture). There is no touching or talking at all during the treatment, one does of course converse with the acupuncturist before treatment. I don't know many people who would find being stuck with needles to be a relaxing experience. As far as it's efficacy , it is reputed to be good for pain relief, there are medical doctors who have adopted it just for that purpose.

I met a lady who was kicked in the head by a horse, and prescription pain killers did not anesthetize her severe nerve pain. Acupuncture was the only thing that helped her. Don't see how that could be a placebo effect (or stictly one), especially considering she had no reason to think it would help her but was willing to try it.

The problem of course is that it's impossible to do double-blind studies on a practice that involves sticking needles in people.

Sure you can. You stick them in random places, no according to TCM. And TCM does much better than random needles, they have tested it. It is often used in conjunction with herbs and this also has been tested.

[Karpel Tunnel]

If we have appendicitis then we shall be grateful for modern medicine.

If we have GORD, TMJ, arthritis, bulging disks, neck and back pain, etc etc etc then we shall be grateful if we don't waste a fortune on doctors and their specialists without satisfactory answers.

yes and if I am shot I will get me rushed to the ER, not the local herbalist. But a lot of alternative treatments work and a lot a mainstream medicine approaches to treatment involve a lot of sideeffects and the notorious overselling and manipulation of big pharma.

You have to pick and choose and learn, get second opinions and find your own way. And it is not always easy.

[Eduk]

I guess alternate medicine doesn't suffer from manipulation due to greed, it's only regular medicine that has this problem. All alternate medicine is only carried out by those with the very best of intentions.

[Sy Borg]

If we have appendicitis then we shall be grateful for modern medicine.

If we have GORD, TMJ, arthritis, bulging disks, neck and back pain, etc etc etc then we shall be grateful if we don't waste a fortune on doctors and their specialists without satisfactory answers.

yes and if I am shot I will get me rushed to the ER, not the local herbalist. But a lot of alternative treatments work and a lot a mainstream medicine approaches to treatment involve a lot of sideeffects and the notorious overselling and manipulation of big pharma.

You have to pick and choose and learn, get second opinions and find your own way. And it is not always easy.

The media has long reported that doctors are grossly overused and that many visits are avoidable, and that too many tests being done, and these are draining public resources more than need be. I figure that, by only seeing doctors when there's something that clearly needs antibiotics or is strange and worrying (which is almost never) I am perhaps finally being a model citizen :)

[Felix]

Karpel Tunnel: Sure you can. You stick them (acupuncture needles) in random places, not according to TCM.

That would be unethical, because if acupuncture actually works, sticking needles in the wrong places could harm someone.

Greta: The media has long reported that doctors are grossly overused and that many visits are avoidable, and that too many tests being done, and these are draining public resources more than need be.

As medicine has become industrialized, there has been a trend towards doctors becoming mere cashiers for the medical laboratories and pharmaceutical companies. Gone is the lengthy interview with a patient to make a medical diagnosis, with a lab test or two ordered to confirm it. Now the protocol is to spend just enough time with the patient to be able to assess what lab tests to order to diagnose biochemical imbalances and what drug to use to correct that imbalance. I suppose the end goal is to eventually replace medical doctors with computers and tell them "your services will no longer be needed."

[Eduk]

Felix why would sticking needles into made up magical 'energy' spots 'work'?
Acupuncture has been tested many times and it has failed to prove effective. Also it makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. It is entirely implausible.
If you would like to actually learn something read this
https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/reference/acupuncture/
Prove that you aren't a machine.
Your view of modern medicine is also depressing as hell. Without a care in the world you lambaste the entire world wide medical profession. With nothing to back up your 'opinion'. Doesn't it shame you to draw such simple conclusions with nothing to back those conclusions up? If you were at a party talking to a doctor would you be so shameless? I have actually talked to people in the medical profession (there are lot of them so you tend to bump into them from time to time). The one's I have met aren't happy with the state of service the NHS provides (I live in the UK) for many and various reasons. I dare say that the NHS is so complex that there isn't a single human being alive who could safely say that they understood it (except of course yourself).

[Thinking critical]

TC, it's clear from your comments that you've never had an acupuncture treatment.

Thinking critical: When people go to acupuncture clinics they are taking a break from their everyday routine to lay down in quiet, relaxed environment with slow music, dimmed lighting or candles maybe some form of incense whilst in the presence of a practitioner who touching the body (soft skin to skin) while talking and listening to there patient.

You do know that acupuncture entails having needles stuck in you? (acu-puncture). There is no touching or talking at all during the treatment, one does of course converse with the acupuncturist before treatment. I don't know many people who would find being stuck with needles to be a relaxing experience. As far as it's efficacy , it is reputed to be good for pain relief, there are medical doctors who have adopted it just for that purpose.

I met a lady who was kicked in the head by a horse, and prescription pain killers did not anesthetize her severe nerve pain. Acupuncture was the only thing that helped her. Don't see how that could be a placebo effect (or stictly one), especially considering she had no reason to think it would help her but was willing to try it.

The problem of course is that it's impossible to do double-blind studies on a practice that involves sticking needles in people.

I know several people who have had actupuncture including my wife (who does not like needles). They all say the same thing, it's a very nice relaxing atmosphere, the needles aren't in uncomfortable at all and none of them could say with any confidence wether or not anything was gained or not from going.

[Karpel Tunnel]

Karpel Tunnel: Sure you can. You stick them (acupuncture needles) in random places, not according to TCM.

That would be unethical, because if acupuncture actually works, sticking needles in the wrong places could harm someone.

Yet, it was done.

[Eduk]

It would be unethical to test the theory that the world is flat by sailing a ship over the horizon because you might fall off the edge if the world was flat.

[Eduk]

funnily enough acupuncture can be dangerous
https://www.theguardian.com/science/201 ... re-needles
but none of the complaints seem to be aimed at needles going in the incorrect magical places. They all seem to regard real things like puncturing vital organs like the heart! or infection. Sadly no magic once again.