Philosophy Discussion Forums | A Humans-Only Club for Open-Minded Discussion & Debate

[ThomasHobbes]

The Koran, Sharia, Islamic Law, moral Righteousness is written by fight by false prophets !!

Mohammad never put Islam into written form.

Islamic Law, sharia, is the musing of false Prophets.

Thomas Hobbs; I really do not care to discuss the subject with you, you are a self-righteous
Hypocrite; you are obviously biased in favor of Fundamentalist Islam.

That is the most stupid thing I'ver read in a long time.
I stand by my comments about you, and see that I was quite right in my estimation of you.

[Spectrum]

What are the root causes?
The attraction of religion is the promise of a happy, eternal ending. The curse of religion is the hate that it propagates which generates violence. We want to get rid of the latter, and it simply isn't necessary to get rid of the former to achieve that. By trying to get rid of both, you will make people more resistant to what you're trying to achieve and will lead them to cling to the hate more strongly too, with the result that the "cure" will likely require a lot of brutal suppression. I think there's a gentler route which doesn't carry extra risk.

I believe the bottle-neck of our discussion is related to 'What are the root causes of religious violence'.

Here are the main root causes if evil and violence;

• 1. DNA wise ALL humans have the potential for evil and violence and SOME [say 20%] are born with an active tendency for evil and violence.
  2. DNA wise ALL humans are driven toward religiosity and the majority are active and subliminally compelled into a religion [believe in a range of degrees].

Here are the main root causes of religious based evils and violence.

• 1. DNA wise ALL humans have the potential for evil and violence and SOME [say 20%] are born with an active tendency for evil and violence -the evil prone.
  2. DNA wise ALL humans are driven toward religiosity and the majority are active and subliminally compelled into a religion [believe in a range of degrees].
  3. Some religions has evil/violent laden elements in their holy texts commanded by a God. [notably Islam]

From 1 and 2 we have 20% of religious believers who are evil prone and they are inspired by 3, the evil elements in their God given holy texts. The resultant of this combination is supported this real evident empirical fact, i.e. https://www.thereligionofpeace.com/TROP.jpg and other evil and violent acts.



From the above the ultimate root cause of evil and violent acts are traceable to the human DNA. It would too difficult to tweak the basic DNA to resolve the issue of the potential evil and violence.

As discussed, my point is Islam per se cannot be reformed because it is commanded by God as immutable. Thus reformation is not my suggested option.

My proposal is to study and understand the root causes of religiosity.
The ultimate root cause of religiosity is the basic DNA. Since the basic DNA is too complex to tweak, we can look at the proximate root causes of religiosity which are located in the brain/mind, i.e. the sets of neurons.
Note even at present we are able to deal with neural problems from outside the box, e.g. curing a headache with an aspirin. In addition brain surgeons can cauterize or cut certain parts of the brain to cure epilepsy.
With advanced knowledge in the near future, we should be able to get inside the box [brain] and deal [btw must be foolproof] with the issue of religiosity neural wise.

The proximate root cause is not a pursuit 'eternal life' which is secondary. The proximate cause of religiosity is an existential crisis pulsating and driving deeper than the level of basic instincts like the 4fs i.e. fight, flight, food, f_sex; security, etc. The existential crisis breed a kind of parasite zombie of DOOM that drive the majority into clinging onto illusory stuffs to sustain sanity.

I believe in the future when we can deal [foolproof methods] with this existential crisis directly, Muslims will recognize this proximate root cause and dissociate themselves from the malignantly evil based Islam and turn to other benign methods to deal with the inherent DNA based unavoidable existential crisis.

Note I am optimistic because humans also has a later inherent moral drive that is evolving and taking up speed in the cortical parts [human] of the brain.

Morality is not just something that people learn, argues Yale psychologist Paul Bloom: It is something we are all born with. At birth, babies are endowed with compassion, with empathy, with the beginnings of a sense of fairness.
https://www.scientificamerican.com/arti ... of-babies/

[ThomasHobbes]

"American Dream" the religion of peace.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_viole ... weapon.svg
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_viole ... sbyage.svg
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_k ... or_to_2009

[Wayne92587]

Wayne wrote;

For those speak of Islam and know nothing of Islam.

Mohammad created Islam because believed that the Jew and the Christian had perverted, distorted, the Word, the Name, the definition, the Identity of God

Mohammad did not commit Islam to writing because he believes that the written word was too easily perverted; in fact, before his death, Mohammad warned his followers not to do as the Jew and the Christian had done and perverted the Name, the Identity of Allah, the “Compassionate God.

The only problem being that the Muslim Clerics, the interpreters of the Koran, Islamic Law, the False Prophets of Sharia, which is a compilation of the Sayings of Mohammad and his followers, are so stupid that they did not know what Mohammad meant.

Mohammad meant do not distort the Nature of Allah; the Compassionate God of Islam.

Ask any Fundamentalist Muslim; does Allah require the Fundamentalist Muslim to be compassionate.

The Fundamentalist Muslim Male Fears the Female, she is not allowed to walk beside her man, must walk behind the Man.

[Wayne92587]

I can not tell you how to put an end to Islamic Terrorism, but I can tell you to begin the end of Islamic Terrorism.

Help Set the Female Muslim Free from her oppressors, the Man-Beasts, Male Chauvenisic Pigs of Islam.

Convince the Muslim Female to throw her Hijab, the symbol of Female oppression in the Islamic World, in the "Dirt".

"No More circumcisions", of young Muslim Females.

[Fanman]

Spectrum,

The proximate root cause is not a pursuit 'eternal life' which is secondary. The proximate cause of religiosity is an existential crisis pulsating and driving deeper than the level of basic instincts like the 4fs i.e. fight, flight, food, f_sex; security, etc. The existential crisis breed a kind of parasite zombie of DOOM that drive the majority into clinging onto illusory stuffs to sustain sanity.

How have you managed to surmise this? In my view, these distinctions are of your own making (such as your claim of a “zombie parasite”), there's no compelling reason to believe that you're right here. Further, the arbitrary nature of these speculative claims doesn't do you any favours in terms of discussion. Are your claims here supported by any evidence or are they a summary of your conclusions based upon what you think you know?

[David Cooper]

From the above the ultimate root cause of evil and violent acts are traceable to the human DNA. It would too difficult to tweak the basic DNA to resolve the issue of the potential evil and violence.

Evolution caused the problem by rewarding rape and pillage genes, so I'm sure it could be reversed by cutting down the amount of such genes. We probably all carry such genes, but it will take certain combinations of them before you create an evil individual where they have a higher proportion of those genes than average. If we stopped such violent individuals breeding, or limited the number of children they can have, we could drive change in the right direction without having to do any direct gene modification. Once we have AGI though, we'll also be able to build intelligent devices into clothing that can deliver electric shocks which violent individuals would be required to wear, and whenever they try to do something seriously immoral they could be temporarily disabled. It's easy to identify most of those problem individuals in childhood because they give themselves away many times by bulling other children, and they shouldn't just be allowed to go on spending their entire childhood becoming better and better at hiding their viciousness.

The ultimate root cause of religiosity is the basic DNA. Since the basic DNA is too complex to tweak, we can look at the proximate root causes of religiosity which are located in the brain/mind, i.e. the sets of neurons.

...we should be able to get inside the box [brain] and deal [btw must be foolproof] with the issue of religiosity neural wise.

I think that'll be harder to control than modifying DNA, and most people aren't going to agree that religiosity needs to be treated either - they not only see it as benign, but as a positive thing that makes them feel happy. I don't think there's a moral case for trying to eliminate it because it is separate from the hate and violence aspects.

I believe in the future when we can deal [foolproof methods] with this existential crisis directly, Muslims will recognize this proximate root cause and dissociate themselves from the malignantly evil based Islam and turn to other benign methods to deal with the inherent DNA based unavoidable existential crisis.

I think you're going a step too far. The love of violence and hate drives abuses, but being religious in itself doesn't, and it may even drive some people to do kind things that they wouldn't do otherwise.

Morality is not just something that people learn, argues Yale psychologist Paul Bloom: It is something we are all born with.

It's an incomplete evolved system of morality which is there because it makes a community/tribe more successful, but not everyone has it, and it can have a restricted range which prevent it being applied to people of other tribes, thereby enabling ordinarily-nice people to do vile things to others when they fail to identify with them. What happens with religious hate is exactly that - people who can be perfectly moral within their religious tribe can throw morality right out the window when they're dealing with people outside of that group because they can't relate to them. If their holy texts compare those outsiders with animals and dehumanise them, that's a powerful way to disable moral controls when dealing with them - Hitler used the same methods to dehumanise the Jews, leading to genocide on a monumental scale with lots of "ordinary" people being roped in to do the killing, which they were prepared to do because they had been so successfully been programmed to see the people they were to kill as vermin. One of the big problems that we're up against is that there are a great many people who see the very real problem with Islam but who go too far, dehumanising Muslims rather than just condemning the holy hate that drives all the abuses, and they wouldn't care at all if the problem was "resolved" by the genocide of all Muslims.

There is a complication with holy hate which is worth a mention here too, because it isn't all so easy to class as hate. Some ideas that seem benign or even beautiful can turn out to have vicious consequences, such as the idea that a group has had a territory given to it by God, thereby leading to them excluding and suppressing other people, or the idea of a cows being holy, which leads to cow-eaters being murdered for not respecting the imaginary holiness of cattle. We really need to add warnings into holy texts to stop people reacting the wrong way to the ideas they contain - they need to be fully debugged to prevent them causing trouble.

My proposed solution then is to rewrite all the holy texts to create benign versions of any religion that causes problems, and then to ban possession and propagation of the old versions and to imprison anyone involved in that for increasing lengths of time until they either stop or never get out again. By only banning the hate, no decent person has any good reason to object to this. And with AGI listening in to everything people say (people already have devices in their lives which can listen in to them all the time), there will be nowhere for the bad ones to hide. We can ensure that they breed less too, thereby preventing bad genes being passed on so much, and over time we will build a population that is inherently safer, more kind and happier.

[Spectrum]

Spectrum,

The proximate root cause is not a pursuit 'eternal life' which is secondary. The proximate cause of religiosity is an existential crisis pulsating and driving deeper than the level of basic instincts like the 4fs i.e. fight, flight, food, f_sex; security, etc. The existential crisis breed a kind of parasite zombie of DOOM that drive the majority into clinging onto illusory stuffs to sustain sanity.

How have you managed to surmise this? In my view, these distinctions are of your own making (such as your claim of a “zombie parasite”), there's no compelling reason to believe that you're right here. Further, the arbitrary nature of these speculative claims doesn't do you any favours in terms of discussion. Are your claims here supported by any evidence or are they a summary of your conclusions based upon what you think you know?

I have tons of materials on this from my perspectives but I am not going to push the details into thick brickwalls.

I believe from those blind acts [not restricted to terrorism] of religious believers one can already infer there is some kind of "zombie parasite" taking over their mind.
No sane person would be that willing to sacrifice their only son like what Abraham was willing to do. There are so many 'stupid' acts that that religious believers has gone to length to commit over the history of mankind that can confirm my hypothesis.

Here is the analogy, Zombie Parasites in Ants = Zombie Parasites in Religious Humans

[Spectrum]

My proposed solution then is to rewrite all the holy texts to create benign versions of any religion that causes problems, and then to ban possession and propagation of the old versions and to imprison anyone involved in that for increasing lengths of time until they either stop or never get out again. By only banning the hate, no decent person has any good reason to object to this. And with AGI listening in to everything people say (people already have devices in their lives which can listen in to them all the time), there will be nowhere for the bad ones to hide. We can ensure that they breed less too, thereby preventing bad genes being passed on so much, and over time we will build a population that is inherently safer, more kind and happier.

Theoretical and in principle I agree with your proposals if they can be put into practice and you can untie the immutability knot of Islam. Obviously that would be faster than my longer term proposal.

My preferred choice in the shorter term would be demonstrate the core of Islam i.e. the Quran is malignantly evil and since it is supposedly immutable, the Quran itself should be totally banned.

I have already done the necessary to demonstrate objectively and convincingly why the Quran [a major part] is malignantly evil.

Ultimately we must deal with the proximate causes rather than the superficial symptoms.

[Wayne92587]

Wayne wrote;

quote] David Cooper; It's an incomplete evolved system of morality which is there because Ibut not everyone has it, and it can have a restricted range which prevents it being applied to people of other tribes, thereby enabling ordinarily-nice people to do vile things to others when they fail to identify with them. [/quote]

Wayne wrote;
Moral Law, Islamic Law, Sharia, as interpreted by the false Imams of Islam is an abomination.

Moral Law; is intended to bring the chaos of the community to order, making the tribe more successful.

Church Law, the Selfish Righteousness of the Pharaoh, the Pharisee, is an abomination, a failure, has failed to live up to its promise to bring peace to the Land

Would that I could, I would destroy Islamic Law, Sharia, the Moral of the Church, and replace it with the Rule of Law.

[Fanman]

Spectrum,

I have tons of materials on this from my perspectives but I am not going to push the details into thick brickwalls.

Without explaining the justifications for what you claim in this respect, it sounds as though these conclusions you're reaching are just your ideas. But you present them in such an arbitrary way, that it seems as though you're claiming that they're facts.

I believe from those blind acts [not restricted to terrorism] of religious believers one can already infer there is some kind of "zombie parasite" taking over their mind. 

I don't believe that there's a “zombie parasite”, people have beliefs, and some people believe so deeply that they're willing to go to extremes. I believe the correct terms to describe such people are indoctrinated and/or fundamentalists. Your term "zombie parasite" is just an analogy, and perhaps not an accurate one.

No sane person would be that willing to sacrifice their only son like what Abraham was willing to do. There are so many 'stupid' acts that that religious believers has gone to length to commit over the history of mankind that can confirm my hypothesis.

According to the scriptures, unlike theists today, Abraham had more reason to believe in God than faith. He was actually visited by divinity who told him that he would have a son, so he effectively spoke to God in the literal sense. I'm not saying that I think that he was right to be willing to sacrifice his son, but given that his experiences with God were literal, he had valid reason to believe that God was real and asking him to do something which would demonstrate the degree to which he revered him. I don't think that Abraham's decision can simply be reduced to insanity, its more complex and nuanced than that.

Whilst there have been many evils committed in the name of religion, I don't think that what you've claimed is substantiated. Perhaps you could explain the logical steps which you think validate your claims?

[Fanman]

Spectrum,

Here is the analogy, Zombie Parasites in Ants = Zombie Parasites in Religious Humans

Aside from this being a huge leap, why would a "zombie parasite" not be present in all humans, and just religious humans? If you're claiming this as an actual hypothesis, then you're presenting it as more than simply an analogy - you take a burden upon yourself to substantiate the claim. For instance, how can you justify making the leap from ants to humans? Do you genuinely observe correlation? How long have you studied the behaviour of ants and humans in that respect?

[Spectrum]

From the above the ultimate root cause of evil and violent acts are traceable to the human DNA. It would too difficult to tweak the basic DNA to resolve the issue of the potential evil and violence.

Evolution caused the problem by rewarding rape and pillage genes, so I'm sure it could be reversed by cutting down the amount of such genes. We probably all carry such genes, but it will take certain combinations of them before you create an evil individual where they have a higher proportion of those genes than average. If we stopped such violent individuals breeding, or limited the number of children they can have, we could drive change in the right direction without having to do any direct gene modification. Once we have AGI though, we'll also be able to build intelligent devices into clothing that can deliver electric shocks which violent individuals would be required to wear, and whenever they try to do something seriously immoral they could be temporarily disabled. It's easy to identify most of those problem individuals in childhood because they give themselves away many times by bulling other children, and they shouldn't just be allowed to go on spending their entire childhood becoming better and better at hiding their viciousness.

It is not likely, there are no specific genes for 'rape' and 'pillage'.
DNA wise, the male is created with a sexual drive, a 'dick' impulse control function, and other modular system.

What happen could be some weakness and weak connectivity during RNA activities and the potential rapist has a weak impulse control function and other weaknesses.
There are many neural activities leading one to be a rapist or commit other evil acts, but the final hurdle is the weak impulse control function is overwhelmed.
E.g. Alcohol or certain drugs can artificially weaken a person's impulse control function.

The ultimate root cause of religiosity is the basic DNA. Since the basic DNA is too complex to tweak, we can look at the proximate root causes of religiosity which are located in the brain/mind, i.e. the sets of neurons.

...we should be able to get inside the box [brain] and deal [btw must be foolproof] with the issue of religiosity neural wise.

I think that'll be harder to control than modifying DNA, and most people aren't going to agree that religiosity needs to be treated either - they not only see it as benign, but as a positive thing that makes them feel happy. I don't think there's a moral case for trying to eliminate it because it is separate from the hate and violence aspects.

I think you're going a step too far. The love of violence and hate drives abuses, but being religious in itself doesn't, and it may even drive some people to do kind things that they wouldn't do otherwise.

You have overlooked some missing links here.
At the moment the majority >85% of humans are religious, so obviously they are bias and will not want any changes to their religion.
I am banking on the current trend of the exponential expansion of knowledge to educate the masses through direct experience to enable them to understand the root cause of being religious. It will not happen NOW but soon.

Note my thesis.

• 1. DNA wise ALL humans has a potential for evil.
  2. 20% of the above are unfortunately born and through RNA has an active evil tendency.
  3. Religions and especially Islam is laden with loads of evil laden elements.

Note 20% of 90% of 7 billion people = appx 1.2+ billion
As for Islam that would be 20% of 1.5 b = 300 million believers with an active evil tendency.

I presume you are aware evil and violent elements in media will influence the vulnerable to commit evil and violence. This is why they are banned, censored and modulated.

Thus the combination of 1, 2 and 3 will definitely caused SOME from the above percentile to commit a range of evil acts.

The facts of the above and real evil acts of SOME Muslims are already there, i.e.

It is strange to me you cannot do the simple inference from cause to effects.

Morality is not just something that people learn, argues Yale psychologist Paul Bloom: It is something we are all born with.

It's an incomplete evolved system of morality which is there because it makes a community/tribe more successful, but not everyone has it, and it can have a restricted range which prevent it being applied to people of other tribes, thereby enabling ordinarily-nice people to do vile things to others when they fail to identify with them.

I believe the basic moral function is already established within the human DNA but it is not very active in the majority. It is slowly unfolding within humanity.
Note relative to 2000->200 years ago humanity has now made Chattel Slavery illegal in all recognized Nations without any help from religions [some inherently condone slavery].
So there is already a trend of increasing level of morality within humanity and is continuing to unfold positively. What we need is to expedite this trend into a steeper curve of positive progress.

What happens with religious hate is exactly that - people who can be perfectly moral within their religious tribe can throw morality right out the window when they're dealing with people outside of that group because they can't relate to them. If their holy texts compare those outsiders with animals and dehumanise them, that's a powerful way to disable moral controls when dealing with them - Hitler used the same methods to dehumanise the Jews, leading to genocide on a monumental scale with lots of "ordinary" people being roped in to do the killing, which they were prepared to do because they had been so successfully been programmed to see the people they were to kill as vermin.

One of the big problems that we're up against is that there are a great many people who see the very real problem with Islam but who go too far, dehumanising Muslims rather than just condemning the holy hate that drives all the abuses, and they wouldn't care at all if the problem was "resolved" by the genocide of all Muslims.

The dehumanizing element is inherently within the core of Islam, i.e. the Quran and this is objectively evident.
So I wonder how you could arrive at the conclusion people [and you?] see religions [Islam in particular] as benign.

[Spectrum]

Spectrum,

I have tons of materials on this from my perspectives but I am not going to push the details into thick brickwalls.

Without explaining the justifications for what you claim in this respect, it sounds as though these conclusions you're reaching are just your ideas. But you present them in such an arbitrary way, that it seems as though you're claiming that they're facts.

I have not claimed them as facts.
They are my views but I have substantiated them with arguments and supporting facts.

I believe from those blind acts [not restricted to terrorism] of religious believers one can already infer there is some kind of "zombie parasite" taking over their mind. 

I don't believe that there's a “zombie parasite”, people have beliefs, and some people believe so deeply that they're willing to go to extremes. I believe the correct terms to describe such people are indoctrinated and/or fundamentalists. Your term "zombie parasite" is just an analogy, and perhaps not an accurate one.

I mentioned 'analogy' and it is so obvious the extremes that SOME religious did and even the majority did are parallel to activities driven by the 'zombie parasites'.
The task is how to explain this "zombie parasites" in principle, technically and demonstrates its activities [cause and effect] objectively.
I want to push the 'zombie parasite' analogy so as to bring to people awareness that the grounds of religions is something very parasitic and unworthy to defend and protect.

No sane person would be that willing to sacrifice their only son like what Abraham was willing to do. There are so many 'stupid' acts that that religious believers has gone to length to commit over the history of mankind that can confirm my hypothesis.

According to the scriptures, unlike theists today, Abraham had more reason to believe in God than faith. He was actually visited by divinity who told him that he would have a son, so he effectively spoke to God in the literal sense. I'm not saying that I think that he was right to be willing to sacrifice his son, but given that his experiences with God were literal, he had valid reason to believe that God was real and asking him to do something which would demonstrate the degree to which he revered him. I don't think that Abraham's decision can simply be reduced to insanity, its more complex and nuanced than that.

The story of Abraham then is similar to the common stories from today's schizophrenics and other mental problems where they hear voices from a god commanding them to act. Example below and there are tons of such evidences;

Whilst there have been many evils committed in the name of religion, I don't think that what you've claimed is substantiated. Perhaps you could explain the logical steps which you think validate your claims?

1. Note I started from empirical evidence of evil acts, i.e.


2. The above stats need to be refined to make it specific and with appropriate qualifications.

3. I have traced the above to the tons of evil laden elements in the Quran, i.e. the core of Islam.

4. I have provided the hypothesis, ALL humans has potential and 20% are born with an active evil tendency.
These 20% are infested with a "zombie parasite" that compel them to commit evil acts given certain conditions. [analogy given].

5. It is so evident from tons of research, evil laden elements will definitely influence the vulnerable 20% to commit evil acts. This is very conclusive.

6. Therefore Religion [as in 3] is a direct cause of religious-based evil.

[Fanman]

Spectrum,

I have not claimed them as facts.
They are my views but I have substantiated them with arguments and supporting facts.

Interesting. Aren't substantiated claims equivalent to facts? If they aren't just speculated claims/views and they aren't facts, then what are they?

I mentioned 'analogy' and it is so obvious the extremes that SOME religious did and even the majority did are parallel to activities driven by the 'zombie parasites'.

The point is, you're specifically claiming that people with religious beliefs are infected with a “zombie parasite”, its not just an analogy, because that is your express claim. You've claimed that it is the same or similar to a "zombie parasite" found in ants, but you have yet to substantiate that claim. To even begin to substantiate that claim requires tons of evidence as is it far reaching, and you'd also have to produce your research which shows a correlation between ants and humans that is related to your claim. You can't expect people to agree with you just because you've made the attachment/correlation, and a video on ants is not substantive. It just isn't compelling in my view. Currently, it reads like a bad tabloid article - "Religious people infected by Zombie Parasite!"

The task is how to explain this "zombie parasites" in principle, technically and demonstrates its activities [cause and effect] objectively.

As I stated, I think it requires much more than that. For a start, what is the correlation between the behaviour of ants, and the behaviour of people with religious beliefs? Also, didn't you previously state that you don't believe in cause and effect?

I want to push the 'zombie parasite' analogy so as to bring to people awareness that the grounds of religions is something very parasitic and unworthy to defend and protect.

So many would disagree with you, and I'm sure that they would present their own justifications.

The story of Abraham then is similar to the common stories from today's schizophrenics and other mental problems where they hear voices from a god commanding them to act. Example below and there are tons of such evidences;

Its not at all in my view, try to view things more subtly. According to the scripture, Abraham and Sarah were visited physically by God/God's messengers, they had a meal with them if I recall correctly. He had more reason to believe in God than faith alone. With most (if not all) of the protagonists in the Bible, God interacted with them on a physical level, their claims about God were substantiated with miracles. Far different from the host of mentally ill people who claim to hear God, feel God and so on and so forth...

Thank you for taking the time to explain the logical steps you took in order to reach your conclusions. I don't really have a problem with your views on the Quran. I agree that it contains inherently evil verses that can inspire its adherents to violence. What I wanted you to provide was the logical steps to this conclusion:

The proximate root cause is not a pursuit 'eternal life' which is secondary. The proximate cause of religiosity is an existential crisis pulsating and driving deeper than the level of basic instincts like the 4fs i.e. fight, flight, food, f_sex; security, etc. The existential crisis breed a kind of parasite zombie of DOOM that drive the majority into clinging onto illusory stuffs to sustain sanity.

Because I don't understand how you surmised that?

I was watching something interesting, whereby an atheist became a Christian. You have to bear in mind that some people have religious beliefs or become religious due to their experiences, which can't be explained by science or any other empirical models. They may not have been religious prior to their experience(s). These experiences may correlate with other religious testimonies or scriptural accounts. Would you claim that such people are infected with a “zombie parasite”? If so, isn't your claim more of a label than something which is truly substantive?