Philosophy Discussion Forums | A Humans-Only Club for Open-Minded Discussion & Debate

[Michael McMahon]

Hi, my name is Michael McMahon. I'm just wondering in terms of physics could dreaming be an encryption procedure and in terms of philosophy if lucid dreaming has any relevance. Encryption isn't used only to secure information but also to delete information. I think sleep is thoroughly misunderstood. I think that it's the acausality of sleep that is the source of free will.

I read a few interesting articles. One is about open timelike curves (https://phys.org/news/2015-12-computing ... ravel.html). These are where an observer goes backwards in their memory but encrypts the information such that the observers are non-interacting but for an entangled gravitational time-dilation.

Another article was about how entropy defying messages could be compatible with quantum mechanics so long as again the information is deleted. This is according to Lorenzo Maccone (https://physics.aps.org/story/v24/st7).

Lucid dreaming is where through intense focus you become conscious during sleep. When you consider major problems like scepticism (dreams are deceptions), why is there something rather than nothing (during sleep there appears to be nothing) and free will (dreams are super-determined in the sense that your thoughts are controlled to prevent you becoming conscious), they all get subliminally solved during sleep, so your unconscious mind knows the answer to these problems. Also consider the notorious binding problem of how the brain creates a unity of consciousness from disparate neurons. The only time all the neurons in the brain are in sync is during slow wave sleep so maybe that has something to do with it.

Just to preempt criticism, if people don't have free will like hard determinists believe then you're in the uncanny valley (creepy mannequins and people in masks; check out https://spectrum.ieee.org/what-is-the-uncanny-valley). And I think free will agnostics are a bit lazy. Yes it's a 5,000-year-old problem so we won't solve it in a day. But if you don't try you're guaranteed to not make any progress!

[Namelesss]

Just to preempt criticism, if people don't have free will like hard determinists believe then you're in the uncanny valley (creepy mannequins and people in masks; check out http://www.the13thfloor.tv/2016/04/12/i ... e-android/). And I think free will agnostics are a bit lazy. Yes it's a 5,000-year-old problem so we won't solve it in a day. But if you don't try you're guaranteed to not make any progress!

Free-will/choice is impossible!
All it is is a 'feeling/thought' that we vainly accept as Reality (makes like little 'creator gods')!
The actuality of such relating to anything other than the vanity of the ego/thought, is impossible!
I can offer plenty of support for this, if you like.
Calling those who might not agree with you names, i.e.; lazy, mask wearing mannequins..., is an ad-hominem fallacy, and doesn't lend credibility to your argument.

[Namelesss]

Becoming lucid in your night dream is far easier than becoming lucid in this dream!

[Eduk]

I don't consider the fact I'm not considering becoming a neurosurgeon, or related, to equate to me being lazy.

[Michael McMahon]

I think one of the main reasons people don't believe in free will is because they're against harsh punishments for criminals. But I don't think the topics of free will and criminal justice should be conflated. It's perfectly possible to believe in free will while being against excessively harsh treatment for criminals. We clearly need a justice system that is fair to both the perpetrator and the victim and does't scapegoat anyone.

[Michael McMahon]

A small number of my lucid dreams were gory and creepy lucid nightmares. This got me thinking about the nature of creepiness; why do we find things like dolls creepy when there's seemingly nothing dangerous about them? Stephen King defined terror as noticing that everything has been replaced by an exact substitute; when you feel something behind you but there's nothing there when you turn around. But this occurs during dreams as they are deceptions. Could creepiness in fact be an inbuilt mechanism to prevent data corruption during sleep? If dreaming really is an encryption procedure then it's likely the mind has a way to prevent you becoming conscious during it. Despite the infrequent nightmares I still find lucid dreaming worthwhile as you can learn a lot about reality from it.

[Namelesss]

I think one of the main reasons people don't believe in free will is because they're against harsh punishments for criminals. But I don't think the topics of free will and criminal justice should be conflated. It's perfectly possible to believe in free will while being against excessively harsh treatment for criminals. We clearly need a justice system that is fair to both the perpetrator and the victim and does't scapegoat anyone.

I'll address your main points.
One, 'beliefs' are not rationally, logically 'chosen', they are 'caught' and 'spread'!
IF there is no 'free-will/choice', then any and all punishment is, as history confirms, useless, at best, and torture/insanity' (prison) at worst.
Well, they'll execute you is worse, I guess.
But if there is no 'choice', any punishment is ignorant and insane!
It is NOT a matter of 'degree'.

What we will evolve to do, with Republikkkans kicking and screaming all the way, is make the Loving transition from the insanity of punishment ('justice' is most often spelled 'R.E.V.E.N.G.E.'!) to Healing!
Healing is a win/win/win system!

[Michael McMahon]

I think people really underestimate sleep. Some assume that because you're not conscious during it then it can't be important. But you're not conscious of your heartbeat either and you don't conclude that the heart is a useless organ. Sleep can have nonsensical storylines but again that doesn't mean it doesn't have a function. An encryption could be concealing a million euro transaction or truly vital information but it will just appear gibberish to anyone that intercepts it. Some might ask how something seemingly trivial that a lack of might make you a bit groggy could have anything to do with the inner workings of reality. But take something as boring as food. That's vital for survival due to the law of consevation of energy. Maybe there could be some corresponding law that applies to sleep. Something about the nature of time perhaps. It's completely undervalued.

[Duckrabbit]

I would suggest, if you are really interested in the subject of dreams and dreaming, you might forgo theoretical physics and information science, and invest some time in checking out psychology. A great place to start: Freud's The Interpretation of Dreams (1896).

[Michael McMahon]

Just to clarify, lucid dreaming can help by working out the inverse. You don't have free will in your dreams. So if you knew why you lacked it during sleep then conversely you'd be able to figure out how you achieve free will when you're awake. Or take identity over time. Objects change constantly in dreams so if you understood why that occured you'd unravel the nature of how objects change in the real world. Dreams are pure anarchy so you could possible discern why the world obeys laws of physics and maybe discover meta-laws determining how the laws of physics change. Dreams could be out of body experiences so you might comprehend the answer to the mind body problem lucid dreaming.

[Michael McMahon]

I think Psychology can help a lot in the study of dreams. Perhaps certain dreams can reveal our moods or hidden desires. Psychology is certainly something I'd like to investigate further. However maybe one slight limitation of this approach is that it's difficult to consistently think of really random images and storylines. Our conscious minds seem to work by creating associations. It's difficult to deliberately break this pattern. The mind appears to need categories on which to form the next thought. I am therefore of the opinion that there is an element of encryption in sleep. I think if there was a concerted effort by people in general and those with skills like cryptography to investigate lucid dreaming that we could make a lot of progress.

[Karpel Tunnel]

I'll address your main points.
One, 'beliefs' are not rationally, logically 'chosen', they are 'caught' and 'spread'!
IF there is no 'free-will/choice', then any and all punishment is, as history confirms, useless, at best, and torture/insanity' (prison) at worst.
Well, they'll execute you is worse, I guess.
But if there is no 'choice', any punishment is ignorant and insane!
It is NOT a matter of 'degree'.

There is no such thing as ignorance or insanity if everything is determined. The urge to punish and the act of punishing would be just as determined as the crime. Further punishment is often seen as a deterrent or a harsh teaching device. And it clearly has that affect in many cases. And those effects still take place in a deterministic universe.

[Namelesss]

I'll address your main points.
One, 'beliefs' are not rationally, logically 'chosen', they are 'caught' and 'spread'!
IF there is no 'free-will/choice', then any and all punishment is, as history confirms, useless, at best, and torture/insanity' (prison) at worst.
Well, they'll execute you is worse, I guess.
But if there is no 'choice', any punishment is ignorant and insane!
It is NOT a matter of 'degree'.

There is no such thing as ignorance or insanity if everything is determined.

Just because all that is is already, doesn't preclude ignorance or insanity from being features of Reality.
When I defined Knowledge and ignorance, it was within the context of individual unique Perspectives.
In which, ignorance certainly does exist as defined.
There can be no Knowledge without Ignorance.

The same holds true for insanity, as I defined it.
Sanity cannot exist without insanity.
Nature is "a harmony of contained conflicts"!

Perhaps you missed those definitions.

The urge to punish and the act of punishing would be just as determined as the crime.

The moments of Torquemada and his tortures, like we, came into existence with the Universe!
These moments could never be otherwise.
Is that what you mean by 'determined'?
I'm not sure what you mean when you mention 'determined'.

In insane moments, there is punishment.
One cannot say that believing in the make believe, and acting on it (with fruits of violence and horror) is not insanity! Hard to make that argument, anyway.

As humanity heals from our insanity, there will no longer even be thought of 'punishment'!

All moments already exist, they do not 'determine' anything, they simply are as We Are!

Further punishment is often seen as a deterrent or a harsh teaching device. And it clearly has that affect in many cases.

History has shown us that it doesn't work at all.
That when someone seems to appear to respond in a particular way to your torture, you can be sure that it is just a natural manifestation of the nature of this individual, and you are taking (fallacious, vain) credit, as ego must do!

And those effects still take place in a deterministic universe.

You don't seem to realize that there can be no 'cause', no 'effect' in a Holistic Universe, this one!
When all moments synchronously arise, there can be no 'causality'.
Thus the insanity of punishment/torture in an attempt to influence what is.

The tree is Known by it's fruits;
the fruits of insanity; violence, torture, predatory behavior on one's fellows, everything 'wrong' with humanity!

All health, spiritual, mental, physical, emotional... is predicated on the ability to Love, unconditionally.

These 'fruits' can be Known, also;

True, unconditional Love is ALWAYS Known by It's unconditional Virtues; Compassion, Empathy, Sympathy, Gratitude, Humility, Charity (Charity is never taking more than your share of anything, ever!), Honesty, Happiness, Faith...
ALWAYS!

Such sanity is a rare Light in the darkness of our insanity (which is just getting worse, or are you not keeping up with the news/history?).

re; punishment
It is also said that the definition of 'stupidity' is in repeating the same behavior in hopes of different results. *__-

[Karpel Tunnel]

The urge to punish and the act of punishing would be just as determined as the crime.

The moments of Torquemada and his tortures, like we, came into existence with the Universe!
These moments could never be otherwise.
Is that what you mean by 'determined'?
I'm not sure what you mean when you mention 'determined'.

I mean, inevitable. The punisher's act of punishment is just as utterly determined (inevitable) as the criminal's criminal act.

In insane moments, there is punishment.
One cannot say that believing in the make believe, and acting on it (with fruits of violence and horror) is not insanity! Hard to make that argument, anyway.

I don't think a billiard ball can be insane. It just moves where it is pushed. So the punisher is moved where he or she is pushed, just as inevitably. If your acts are determines you are neither sane nor insane. You are doing the only thing you could possibly do, you are thinking the only thing you possibly could. The sane person is a red flower, the insane a yellow one. Sanity, insanity mean nothing. Stuff happens, period

As humanity heals from our insanity, there will no longer even be thought of 'punishment'!

Perhaps, though if you are a determinist, then you should know that you HAVE TO THINK THIS WILL HAPPEN. You are compelled to and you cannot be sure why, since you HAVE TO THINK you reached that conclusion logically through whatever process you did.

All moments already exist, they do not 'determine' anything, they simply are as We Are!

Then I don't really get your judgments that this or that person is insane. You seem upset about the way things are and looking forward to when they are different, while saying time does not exist.

History has shown us that it doesn't work at all.

It sure works sometimes. But then, who cares. There is no time, everything is as it is.

You don't seem to realize that there can be no 'cause', no 'effect' in a Holistic Universe, this one!

You don't seem to realize that if you are correct about the universe it does not matter at all in the least if I realize or not. I am what I am and it was always so.

When all moments synchronously arise, there can be no 'causality'.
Thus the insanity of punishment/torture in an attempt to influence what is.

Insanity is such a negative word. Do you have trouble with what is and always has been and will always be?

The tree is Known by it's fruits;
the fruits of insanity; violence, torture, predatory behavior on one's fellows, everything 'wrong' with humanity!

If you use fruits as substitute for causes, you are still talking about causes. You are still complaining about what is and had to be the way it is.

re; punishment
It is also said that the definition of 'stupidity' is in repeating the same behavior in hopes of different results. *__-

'approach to getting results' is another way of talking about causes. You are complaining about the effects of what some people do. While elsewhere saying there are no causes and no time. Do you believe your own beliefs?

[Namelesss]

The moments of Torquemada and his tortures, like we, came into existence with the Universe!
These moments could never be otherwise.
Is that what you mean by 'determined'?
I'm not sure what you mean when you mention 'determined'.

I mean, inevitable. The punisher's act of punishment is just as utterly determined (inevitable) as the criminal's criminal act.

Then we are on the same page.
Every moment of Universal existence is 'inevitably' as it is!

In insane moments, there is punishment.
One cannot say that believing in the make believe, and acting on it (with fruits of violence and horror) is not insanity! Hard to make that argument, anyway.

I don't think a billiard ball can be insane.[/quote]
Neither do I.
Again, on the same page.

It just moves where it is pushed. So the punisher is moved where he or she is pushed, just as inevitably.

If all moments are inevitable, as it is, Here! Now!, then 'motion'; 'pushing', 'influencing', 'doing'... is not possible!

If your acts are determines you are neither sane nor insane.
You are doing the only thing you could possibly do, you are thinking the only thing you possibly could. The sane person is a red flower, the insane a yellow one. Sanity, insanity mean nothing. Stuff happens, period

Just because you have no free-will/choice but to manifest who and what you are, at this moment, does not necessarily preclude either sanity or insanity.
I'm still waiting for that argument.

As humanity heals from our insanity, there will no longer even be thought of 'punishment'!

Perhaps, though if you are a determinist, then you should know that you HAVE TO THINK THIS WILL HAPPEN. You are compelled to and you cannot be sure why, since you HAVE TO THINK you reached that conclusion logically through whatever process you did.

Still not an argument for or against sanity.
The though that I see from here, at this moment is the thought that I perceive at this moment.
Nothing more and nothing less.
If I have 'caught a belief' in that thought, therein lies the bugaboo, insanity.
Insanity can always be evidenced in 'belief'.
Like it or not, it exists. Everything exists (is perceived)!

That I have no choice in the goings on of the moment, and that you seem to realize this, is the argument against 'punishment', but not '(in)sanity.

All moments already exist, they do not 'determine' anything, they simply are as We Are!

Then I don't really get your judgments that this or that person is insane. You seem upset about the way things are and looking forward to when they are different, while saying time does not exist.

Not a judgment, but an observation.
Very different things.
I already well defined 'insanity', as I use it, and 'sanity'. It's really not left to the emotions. It's a matter of the 'fruits' in the world therefrom.
Sanity is fruitful for all, insanity is not.

History has shown us that it doesn't work at all.

It sure works sometimes. (irrelevant sarcasm snipped)

It sure SEEMS TO work sometimes!
That is just the ego taking credit for that of which it is not responsible. It is the nature of thought/ego believed.

You don't seem to realize that there can be no 'cause', no 'effect' in a Holistic Universe, this one!

You don't seem to realize that if you are correct about the universe it does not matter at all in the least if I realize or not. I am what I am and it was always so.

What 'matters' to you is what 'matters' to you!
All 'meaning' is in the eye (thoughts/ego) of the beholder.
I do not need to 'realize' that which you might. What 'is' is exactly what we 'need'!
The Reality of what you do not realize is that you are a unique 'you'/Perspective every moment of Universal existence!
One moment might find you stumped over how much cheese to put on your nachos, and another might find that genius shining through.
Every moment.
'Continuity' is no more than a mirage, a 'feeling', 'memory'...

When all moments synchronously arise, there can be no 'causality'.
Thus the insanity of punishment/torture in an attempt to influence what is.

Insanity is such a negative word. Do you have trouble with what is and always has been and will always be?

Not at all, not even the 'uncomfortable stuff', as you seem to.
All is Self! One Omni- Self! All inclusive, even of insanity and all dark corners!
Yes, God is insane!
And not...

The tree is Known by it's fruits;
the fruits of insanity; violence, torture, predatory behavior on one's fellows, everything 'wrong' with humanity!

If you use fruits as substitute for causes, you are still talking about causes. You are still complaining about what is and had to be the way it is.

Not at all.
Saying that an apple is sweet has nothing to do with 'causes' but is merely an observation of the moment.
Just calling an appearance of a Virtue when Love is present is an observation, not a judgment, as is the appearance of unpleasant stuff when Love is not around.
When I use 'fruit' (for those whose only refutation is in niggling wordplay), it means 'manifestation', that better?
You cannot entrap me in your self-serving web, because I know better than 'causality', as I have (repeatedly) demonstrated.

I'll make it easy, I am the world's greatest hypocrite!
Now, how does that help you refute anything that I said?

You are arguing for torture, punishment... what am I even arguing with you about?
I cannot, would not, 'change your mind, I am just offering this Perspective, which I have done.
You will 'heal', or not.

Many will have to die before humanity can (cumulatively) heal (learn to Love, unconditionally).
Yes, I used 'before', but I am simply using metaphor that you can understand.