Philosophy Discussion Forums | A Humans-Only Club for Open-Minded Discussion & Debate

[jerlands]

Well bring in the kitchen sink Yes, the fall of man. I guess we have to develop an understanding what man is, what time is, what creation is about so that we might bring things into perspective. You have no idea what you're speaking other than the fact the universe itself is full of violence as we perceive it and today we are seemingly sheltered.. right?

Kitchen sinks have no doubt improved too

I mentioned biodynamics earlier. This philosophy is similar to permaculture but adapts the notion of concentrating universal forces and and redistributing them to the soil. In that way man seems to be more personally active in his relationship with the development of the soil of the land. It really is the health of the soil that determines the health of the plant and that is the foundation of our food chain. You speak of the advancements of today but what I see is man driven with blinders to reach the four corners of the universe with an antenna. We have now communication and await a message. Another interesting aspect of today is our insistence of right. I know there has been a race to establish an environment that is conducive to exploration of thought and discovery of self and I believe we live in that era today. However, we're only now touching upon notions with tools that allow us to prove them for this age. An example is the notion of the heart, it's role in our physiology and the reason why so many are stricken with its illness. We don't even fully understand what our organs are doing and how they relate to anything else. The heart is not a pump. The capillaries in our body circulates our blood. But what does the heart actually do?
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[Hereandnow]

Scribbler60
Western civilization has flourished in spite of the bible, not because of it. It was rejection of religious precepts in preference to scientific principles which has led to the flowering of human intellect and achievement. It started with the Enlightenment and continues to this day.

There has never, ever been an example where biblical information has trumped actual, empirical scientific understanding. Never. Not once. But science has proven biblical information wrong on a consistent basis.

Well, when you think of the bible as information, then you come to the conclusions defend. But it's not. It's a history of people's attempt to redeem a world we are thrown into (think geworfenheit).

The bible is, I would agree, an appalling guide to solve moral dilemmas, and is a rationalization for moral nightmares (slavery, for example), and people simply have to stop thinking of it as god's attempt to tell the world what to do. But it does bring on the stage of human affairs an attempt reconcile this world's deepest mystery, which is our birth into misery and suffering. And because this is something primordial, not some institutional contrivance, it reveals the deepest mystery about ourselves and what it means to be human.

[jerlands]

Scribbler60
Western civilization has flourished in spite of the bible, not because of it. It was rejection of religious precepts in preference to scientific principles which has led to the flowering of human intellect and achievement. It started with the Enlightenment and continues to this day.

There has never, ever been an example where biblical information has trumped actual, empirical scientific understanding. Never. Not once. But science has proven biblical information wrong on a consistent basis.

Well, when you think of the bible as information, then you come to the conclusions defend. But it's not. It's a history of people's attempt to redeem a world we are thrown into (think geworfenheit).

The bible is, I would agree, an appalling guide to solve moral dilemmas, and is a rationalization for moral nightmares (slavery, for example), and people simply have to stop thinking of it as god's attempt to tell the world what to do. But it does bring on the stage of human affairs an attempt reconcile this world's deepest mystery, which is our birth into misery and suffering. And because this is something primordial, not some institutional contrivance, it reveals the deepest mystery about ourselves and what it means to be human.

Redemption, that actually seems to be profound Biblical insight. Is it true "God" acts through his creation? I question why "God" brought this into the world in the first place?
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[Hereandnow]

jerlands
Redemption, that actually seems to be profound Biblical insight. Is it true "God" acts through his creation? I question why "God" brought this into the world in the first place?

Whenever I write 'god' I use a small 'g' because I don't really approve of this term at all. So presumptuous; but its problem lies in it attempt to do what Hume said does: make the dreadful world accessible, manageable. We need to end this talk about god. I can understand how it is if you are there and your family has been massacred and the word becomes an instrument of grief and catharsis, but in our thinking this word just causes trouble in the form of invented arguments, like St Anselm's greatest possible Being, or those juvenile arguments about god's omnipotence, or what drives the need for theodicy.
Talking about "god acting' is blatant anthropomorphism. Where is the justification for talking about god bringing us into the world? What is this "bringing" if not thought prior to bringing, as in typical cognitive act? Is that what god does, thinks typically? It's absurd.
Redemption, however, is built into the world, for the world is not a morally stand alone place. It requires, inherently requires redemption, that is, a moral rectification. This is due to two things: the nature of suffering itself and the consummation of joy.

[jerlands]

This is due to two things: the nature of suffering itself and the consummation of joy.

Ok.. so we differ. Suffering is simply burden upon oneself. We can assume it or it can be imposed upon us. The imposition seems to come out of failure in some regard, like cavities from improper diet and lack of hygiene. Frankly, I'd rather be a slave in heaven than a free man in hell.
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[jerlands]

Talking about "god acting' is blatant anthropomorphism. Where is the justification for talking about god bringing us into the world? What is this "bringing" if not thought prior to bringing, as in typical cognitive act? Is that what god does, thinks typically? It's absurd.

This is where we differ. My view is "God" brought forth everything.
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[Count Lucanor]

Myth is simply a story that relays an analogy to some event through language. So to fully comprehend the myth we have to understand the language and also the words as they were told.

No, that's not what myth is. It is not just any story, even though it can adopt many forms in ancient and modern cultures.
https://www.britannica.com/topic/myth

Myth, a symbolic narrative, usually of unknown origin and at least partly traditional, that ostensibly relates actual events and that is especially associated with religious belief. It is distinguished from symbolic behaviour (cult, ritual) and symbolic places or objects (temples, icons). Myths are specific accounts of gods or superhuman beings involved in extraordinary events or circumstances in a time that is unspecified but which is understood as existing apart from ordinary human experience.

Imagination is simply placing one foot in front of the other before you do it. It's the mind following some progression through the minds medium which is thought and which we comprehend through reason.

That's a very limited concept of imagination. I guess you never listened to a song "Imagine" by a guy named John Lennon.

You are concluding the Exodus story is a lie based on your ability to understand it.

There's nothing to interpret here. The story is either a factual event or not. And we know as fact that it is not a historical event, it didn't happen.

Is astrology a four letter word? Something that has been perverted so we no longer recognize it? Astrology is space-time. The earth's relationship to other heavenly bodies and the influence those relationships create. Similar is the influence a full moon has on the earth vs. a new moon's.

That's pure old superstition. It has been debunked so many times, I've stopped counting.

I can't convince you fluoride isn't good for you or that vaccines are disadvantageous or that eating chemical laden foods in unhealthy without you first taking those issues into true consideration for yourself. If you merely negate based on belief that we are an advanced society then you'll find yourself subject to societies errors. Have you ever hear "as you judge so shall you be judged?" all that's hogwash too huh?

You can convince me of anything that is reasonable and supported by evidence. If you can't provide that, I'm free not to subscribe to any claims, especially those of supernatural nature. What is reasonable and supported by evidence is that religious texts mostly provide false historical accounts of events in order to indoctrinate people. As Einstein accurately put it:

"The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honourable, but still primitive legends…. For me the Jewish religion like all other religions is an incarnation of the most childish superstitions."

[jerlands]

For me the Jewish religion like all other religions is an incarnation of the most childish superstitions.

How to wake someone up from the dead? That seems to be the problem I'm faced with.

[Hereandnow]

jerlands
Ok.. so we differ. Suffering is simply burden upon oneself. We can assume it or it can be imposed upon us. The imposition seems to come out of failure in some regard, like cavities from improper diet and lack of hygiene. Frankly, I'd rather be a slave in heaven than a free man in hell.

No, we certainly did not invent suffering due to lack of worldly maintenance. Suffering is a given in the world; the things we put into practice to deal with it, those are inventions. Politics, for example. But suffering? don't look to what can cause it, look to its very presence. The bit heaven and hell are just puzzling.

This is where we differ. My view is "God" brought forth everything.

But the question is clear: Why? Where did you get this view and how is it that it is convincing? (Faith is not an option in itself, for this god belief has substance, it is about some entity, and this grounds it in the need for justification. Existential faith is quite different.) Keep in mind, I am not an atheist, but I think conversation about divinity and the world needs to be reduced to basics by wiping the slate clean of unwarranted ideas.
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[jerlands]

jerlands
Ok.. so we differ. Suffering is simply burden upon oneself. We can assume it or it can be imposed upon us. The imposition seems to come out of failure in some regard, like cavities from improper diet and lack of hygiene. Frankly, I'd rather be a slave in heaven than a free man in hell.

No, we certainly did not invent suffering due to lack of worldly maintenance. Suffering is a given in the world; the things we put into practice to deal with it, those are inventions. Politics, for example. But suffering? don't look to what can cause it, look to its very presence. The bit heaven and hell are just puzzling.

Suffering is the search for an answer to survival. It is encumbered by all of creation and thus given the world. The Biblical story however subjects Adam and Eve to the notions of good and evil, philosophical concepts that separate man from beast. Adam and Eve were given a choice by "God" and they took accepted that choice as their destiny to be an active participant in a solution (as some might interpret the story.)

This is where we differ. My view is "God" brought forth everything.

But the question is clear: Why? Where did you get this view and how is it that it is convincing? (Faith is not an option in itself, for this god belief has substance, it is about some entity, and this grounds it in the need for justification. Existential faith is quite different.) Keep in mind, I am not an atheist, but I think conversation about divinity and the world needs to be reduced to basics by wiping the slate clean of unwarranted ideas.
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Yes, why indeed... Who really knows "God?" I agree that faith is not an answer but gives us basis to continue. We see something in it that gives us reason to pursue. If we want something rational then the most basic form in my opinion is number, though possibly again the most difficult. If we can envision one (1) arising from nothingness (possibly inactive fullness) then we might begin our ability to count.
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[jerlands]

Actually all creation has notions of right and wrong as demonstrated by certain form of behavior such as "pack."

[Count Lucanor]

For me the Jewish religion like all other religions is an incarnation of the most childish superstitions.

How to wake someone up from the dead? That seems to be the problem I'm faced with.

You're then faced with an unsolvable problem.

[jerlands]

How to wake someone up from the dead? That seems to be the problem I'm faced with.

You're then faced with an unsolvable problem.

Not really. The solutions there. I just need to know how to implement it.

[Sy Borg]

To play music loud enough to wake the dead? To implement: a Strat and a wall of Marshall stacks might do the trick.

[jerlands]

To implement: a Strat and a wall of Marshall stacks might do the trick.

That literally was the Dead.
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