Philosophy Discussion Forums | A Humans-Only Club for Open-Minded Discussion & Debate

[jerlands]

Justice, as practiced legally, personally, is revenge, a devolved, sinful, behavior.
Locking someone in prison to be tortured for something over which he had no choice is insanity.

I believe your concept of Justice is flawed. Justice does not necessitate punishment but can actually reward. Justice arises from judgement, a measurement of one thing in relation to another and that action is the basis for logic and reason.

[jerlands]

Think of justice when your belongings are taken away, your wife raped and your children murdered.

So, is this the old attempt to show disingenuity and dismiss by saying that "you wouldn't think so if it were your family, etc... etc... etc..."?
Can you understand the meaning of the quote or not?
Justice, as practiced legally, personally, is revenge, a devolved, sinful, behavior.
Locking someone in prison to be tortured for something over which he had no choice is insanity.

Justice entered the conversation when I asserted it was the bible which provided western civilization a notion of it during the exodus. It was you who made the implication between justice and injustice, which you should be able to see... the difference.

We're taught the concept of justice at a very early age as "do unto others."

Let me help you out with the correct translation of that quote;
"Do NOT do to others what you DON'T want done to you!"
That is the unconditional ethics born of unconditional Love/Enlightenment.
And we are taught all sorts of crap from an early age.

The Golden Rule, law of reciprocity, implies to give as you would want to receive. It does not imply NOT to give.

You're implying civilization is unfounded. Not needed and unnecessary.

I am attempting to point out how aside from sin, judgment is insanity and ignorant.
Love heals, not punish.
If 'civilization' is the harmonious working together for the good of all, in intimate cooperation with the entire environment and each other, win/win/win, then such a thing has yet to exist.
Other species have achieved 'such civilization', schizo-sapiens has yet to manage such a thing.

Proverbs 13:24: Whoever spares the rod hates their children, but the one who loves their children is careful to discipline them. Love is a big word that isn't well defined other than desire. It isn't punishment that injures but injustice.

Justice is the basis for order and without order you'd simply have chaos.

Your 'order' and 'chaos' are simply two Perspectives of One and the Same Thing!
Unworthy of my examination of are 'distinctions' that don't really exist.

It is the exchange in the lungs between expansion and contraction that the blood is enlivened. Duality itself provides a potential that we draw upon (think of a battery.)

The more that you, or science, attempt to find any sure place, a definitive border where one thing leaves off and another begins, the more it is found to be impossible.
The study of such 'dualistic distinctions', as if Reality, is a fool's waste of time.

Rise and fall it doesn't matter as everything is already "God" so what's the fuss? Is that correct?

There is no free-will/choice, who and what we are at the moment will manifest.
Killers will kill, healers will heal. No choices, no blame, no insane punishment so we'll make better 'choices' next time.
History shows what a failure that philosophy is!

You're blind in history if you believe that. Every structure expresses a philosophy.

The problem I see in this philosophy is nothing matters. Strike another and so what? Or am I not getting the picture?
.

Living in a society with others, there must be responsibility for our actions.
If I break your window, ethically, it is my responsibility to replace it.
Laws are for those with no ethics.
Punishment, is insanity.

The problem man faces in survival isn't an easy one because, for one, tyrants and dictators arise that wish to dominate your and my horizons.
.

[jerlands]

Rise and fall it doesn't matter as everything is already "God" so what's the fuss? Is that correct?

There is no free-will/choice, who and what we are at the moment will manifest.
Killers will kill, healers will heal. No choices, no blame, no insane punishment so we'll make better 'choices' next time.
History shows what a failure that philosophy is!

How do you know that? How do you know you don't somehow have a say in your circumstances at birth? That statement is mere assumption. Our affinity for ourselves may be the force that sets us in time and place. Who knows?

The problem I see in this philosophy is nothing matters. Strike another and so what? Or am I not getting the picture?
.

Living in a society with others, there must be responsibility for our actions.
If I break your window, ethically, it is my responsibility to replace it.
Laws are for those with no ethics.
Punishment, is insanity.

Be real... Law protects you and also offers guidance. Law also protects ethics which man sees to misplace when not in sight.
.

[Count Lucanor]

First to address the last. I have a hard time removing science from the umbrella of philosophy.

Neither do I, but when I said two divergent modes of thinking I mean mythical thought vs science-based thought.

As for the basis of your post... it seems to me in order to understand anything we have to examine it in context. That contextual reality is difficult because this is now and that was then so all elements present at that time are gone, they don't exist other than from what we can gather and imagine.

Not at all, it's not guess work. There are several disciplines with useful tools to connect the pieces of the puzzles of history and reach very conclusive and objective accounts of how societies worked, how their members thought, organized their culture, economy, etc. Archaeology has given us a very good picture of how things really were in the time described in the Bible.

But the story is even more complicated because these men have been told by "God" they were led to the promised land and there they were to build a kingdom (in so many words.)

Well, this is just you buying the biblical narrative. No, no magical creature from heavens talked to anybody, that's what the myth is all about: telling people that what they have to do with their lives obeys the commands of a "lawgiver" that's beyond human realm and should not be questioned. This magical divine creature only talks to the ones handing out the rules.

[jerlands]

First to address the last. I have a hard time removing science from the umbrella of philosophy.

Neither do I, but when I said two divergent modes of thinking I mean mythical thought vs science-based thought.

Science has certain precepts to its methodology that you seem to believe weren't followed in all mythological formulations. Ancient Egypt had an advanced science that you may not recognized and may in fact not be conventionally recognized but it's teachings of that science were expressed as relationships between things that formed stories. The science was also expressed in it's art and in fact science was the foundation of the civilization.

As for the basis of your post... it seems to me in order to understand anything we have to examine it in context. That contextual reality is difficult because this is now and that was then so all elements present at that time are gone, they don't exist other than from what we can gather and imagine.

Not at all, it's not guess work. There are several disciplines with useful tools to connect the pieces of the puzzles of history and reach very conclusive and objective accounts of how societies worked, how their members thought, organized their culture, economy, etc. Archaeology has given us a very good picture of how things really were in the time described in the Bible.

We do have pieces but we don't have the entire picture because simply put we're not in that space time. We don't possess the same thought process as we once had. We don't hold all things in the same regard as we once did i.e., the moon phases, the constellations, seasonal changes, the rising of the sun. We just don't have the same relationship with our environment as we once had. We can pretend to know but we don't and can't because we weren't there except in our minds to experience the effects of the universal influence of that time (inertia, the energy of matter in motion.)

But the story is even more complicated because these men have been told by "God" they were led to the promised land and there they were to build a kingdom (in so many words.)

Well, this is just you buying the biblical narrative. No, no magical creature from heavens talked to anybody, that's what the myth is all about: telling people that what they have to do with their lives obeys the commands of a "lawgiver" that's beyond human realm and should not be questioned. This magical divine creature only talks to the ones handing out the rules.

I see this as naive... To phatom the burning bush... how we communicate with "God." Do we understand the relationship man holds with trees or is there even one? Biologically we have an axis (seemingly our spinal cord but really our gut) and also we have these sensory branches that reach out give us depth of perception, that give us fullness in the space we occupy. We seemingly communicate with "God" through our consciousness, the totality of our situational awareness.
.

[jerlands]

I have used biblical quotes, when they are Enlightened.
You, yourself have already agreed that the book needs a critical update, so you cannot, obviously, take the entire thing literally?
So, the so-called teachings' that are not Enlightened, that lead into sin, that justify sin, that point in other directions then intended, that were added by priests and popes and people with agendas, that were mistakenly added into cannon by scribes that should have left them in the margins of comment, etc... etc... etc...
Yes, I dismiss erroneous 'teachings';
'Satan, himself, comes as an angel of Light!' - bible
I especially dismiss teachings that my own experience bears to be false and unenlightened/unLoving!

Here's what I actually wrote:

The bible is due for a very critical update!

I agree with this in that I believe the Bible is not the be all end all in our relationship with "God" but the question remains if in fact it is truth. What i dislike about it is it leads to an apocalyptic end and this I question.

I see the Bible as a passage in time and that's what I meant in agreeing with your statement and, although I see everlasting truths in it the foundation it provides, it seems to me to lead us deeper into our roots of origin.
.

[Namelesss]

Justice, as practiced legally, personally, is revenge, a devolved, sinful, behavior.
Locking someone in prison to be tortured for something over which he had no choice is insanity.

I believe your concept of Justice is flawed. Justice does not necessitate punishment but can actually reward. Justice arises from judgement,

Another of those silly and pesky dualities;
The only 'difference' between 'reward' and 'punishment' is which way you happen to be facing, completely a matter of Perspective; two opposite Perspectives of the same One Event/Reality!
If one can see beyond one's immediate truncated Perspective, one could see the perfect balance of the opposite Perspective and find repose in the Middle, in the Center, in peace and Knowledge.
I have experienced again and again when I am ready to 'defend and propagate' any particular Perspective (one that I Know) when the opposite Perspective arises to mind, they cancel out and I am left silent. Like matter and anti-matter coming together and self annihilating, no more ignorant argument.
Again, we never have enough Knowledge to 'judge', discriminate, 'fairly'.
Thus are we warned against it.

[Namelesss]

Locking someone in prison to be tortured for something over which he had no choice is insanity.

Justice entered the conversation when I asserted it was the bible which provided western civilization a notion of it during the exodus. It was you who made the implication between justice and injustice, which you should be able to see... the difference.

Oh, I should, should I? *__-
So, you have suggestions for God? That seems to follow, as you are sufficiently vain to judge God.
Since you are so much more thoughtful on such judgmental topics, why don't you share with me, and all the rest of the peepers, the exact border, as you see it, between 'justice' and 'injustice', other than the vain, judgmental thoughts/ego of 'the beholder'?

Let me help you out with the correct translation of that quote;
"Do NOT do to others what you DON'T want done to you!"
That is the unconditional ethics born of unconditional Love/Enlightenment.
And we are taught all sorts of crap from an early age.

The Golden Rule, law of reciprocity, implies to give as you would want to receive. It does not imply NOT to give.

Please, check it out. You are simply laboring under a mistranslation that, ultimately fails completely if one can actually critically examine it!
Otherwise, believe as you must.

I am attempting to point out how aside from sin, judgment is insanity and ignorant.
Love heals, not punish.
If 'civilization' is the harmonious working together for the good of all, in intimate cooperation with the entire environment and each other, win/win/win, then such a thing has yet to exist.
Other species have achieved 'such civilization', schizo-sapiens has yet to manage such a thing.

Proverbs 13:24: Whoever spares the rod hates their children, but the one who loves their children is careful to discipline them. Love is a big word that isn't well defined other than desire. It isn't punishment that injures but injustice.

Well, one more thing that can be deleted from the bible, the command to beat your children with rods. How many idiot pseudoXtians have used that one to justify their sin (blasphemy)!
Sorry, that trash is gone! Good riddance!
The 'love' of which you speak, is the dark simulacrum of the conditional thoughts/ego.
The 'love' that discriminates, that lives and dies, that passes, that, usually barely rises above chemical animal lust and need to reproduce.
You obviously have yet to experience the unconditional Love of which Jesus demonstrated/taught.

Love is the dissolution of ego (all) boundaries.
The Universal solvent of the Alchemists that transforms the 'base-metal' and leaves the 'pure gold'!
Unconditional Love = Enlightenment.

True, unconditional Love is ALWAYS Known by It's unconditional Virtues; Compassion, Empathy, Sympathy, Gratitude, Humility, Charity (Charity is never taking more than your share of anything, ever!), Honesty, Happiness, Faith...
ALWAYS!

'The 'conditional' ego 'desires'...

“Your task is not to seek for Love, but merely to seek and find all the barriers within yourself that you have built against it.” - Rumi

tat tvam asi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tat_Tvam_Asi)

There is no free-will/choice, who and what we are at the moment will manifest.
Killers will kill, healers will heal. No choices, no blame, no insane punishment so we'll make better 'choices' next time.
History shows what a failure that philosophy is!

You're blind in history if you believe that. Every structure expresses a philosophy.

Let me elucidate;
The philosophy that I said was an utter failure is the one that says that retribution and punishment and retaliation will somehow teach the 'offender' a lesson so she'll make 'better choices' next time.
It is THAT that history up to the moment has demonstrated a failure.
Perhaps a 'new' way to look at things.
Perhaps Love?

[Count Lucanor]

Science has certain precepts to its methodology that you seem to believe weren't followed in all mythological formulations. Ancient Egypt had an advanced science that you may not recognized and may in fact not be conventionally recognized but it's teachings of that science were expressed as relationships between things that formed stories. The science was also expressed in it's art and in fact science was the foundation of the civilization.

It's very unlikely that mythological formulations played any important role in the technical advances of ancient civilizations, whether they were the Egyptians, Assyrians, Mayans, etc. As history has shown us, it's actually the other way around: technical advances are related to the modes of production developed in a given society, which in ancient civilizations had to do with agricultural specialization and the sedentary life that came along with it. It also meant a division of labor and the emergence of hierarchical structures. And then here is where myths begin to play their role, trying to make sense of these social structures and power relations as divinely devised.

We do have pieces but we don't have the entire picture because simply put we're not in that space time. We don't possess the same thought process as we once had. We don't hold all things in the same regard as we once did i.e., the moon phases, the constellations, seasonal changes, the rising of the sun. We just don't have the same relationship with our environment as we once had. We can pretend to know but we don't and can't because we weren't there except in our minds to experience the effects of the universal influence of that time (inertia, the energy of matter in motion.)

Based on that concept, we wouldn't have much to say about World War I, the industrial revolution or the French Second Empire, because "we're not in that space time".

I see this as naive... To phatom the burning bush... how we communicate with "God." Do we understand the relationship man holds with trees or is there even one? Biologically we have an axis (seemingly our spinal cord but really our gut) and also we have these sensory branches that reach out give us depth of perception, that give us fullness in the space we occupy. We seemingly communicate with "God" through our consciousness, the totality of our situational awareness.
.

None of that has any scientific basis. Consciousness occurs in the brain. And there's no "god" to communicate with.

[jerlands]

I believe your concept of Justice is flawed. Justice does not necessitate punishment but can actually reward. Justice arises from judgement,

Another of those silly and pesky dualities;
The only 'difference' between 'reward' and 'punishment' is which way you happen to be facing, completely a matter of Perspective; two opposite Perspectives of the same One Event/Reality!
If one can see beyond one's immediate truncated Perspective, one could see the perfect balance of the opposite Perspective and find repose in the Middle, in the Center, in peace and Knowledge.
I have experienced again and again when I am ready to 'defend and propagate' any particular Perspective (one that I Know) when the opposite Perspective arises to mind, they cancel out and I am left silent. Like matter and anti-matter coming together and self annihilating, no more ignorant argument.
Again, we never have enough Knowledge to 'judge', discriminate, 'fairly'.
Thus are we warned against it.

Duality is life. It is the energy that fills our universe, the waves that ripple into the shore. Although modern theoretical philosophers don't agree creation began in contraction expanding, this was the universal notion accepted by ancient philosophers of a day. It isn't so much the inverse of the other as the difference between the two that we draw upon. This is how judgement works, the value in the difference between justice and injustice and then equitable value to bring about a balance. All things seek rest and ultimately rest provides well being.
.

[Namelesss]

There is no free-will/choice, who and what we are at the moment will manifest.
Killers will kill, healers will heal. No choices, no blame, no insane punishment so we'll make better 'choices' next time.
History shows what a failure that philosophy is!

How do you know that?

Knowledge = experience.
The simple analytical critical examination of the philosophical concepts, plus the data that science brings, plus history, plus the ability to think for myself, plus experience, plus there is no refutation that I have ever heard, other than whiny 'beliefs' and emotionality. Plus it is greatly predictive (evidence of a good theory).
Shall I go on?
Don't take my word, don't think something because I said it, practice thinking for yourself!
Perhaps what I offer can be food for that thought, perhaps not.
All 'meaning' exists in the eye (thought/ego) of the beholder.

How do you know you don't somehow have a say in your circumstances at birth?

One more time;
Knowledge = experience.
Sho me someone who experienced som actual 'choice' (other than the thought/feeling), and I will consider.
You cannot.
Why not Martians implanted us in our mommies? Same thing. With no data, no evidence, nothing 'perceived/experienced', all we have is mental masturbation.
Hogwarts. *__-

Living in a society with others, there must be responsibility for our actions.
If I break your window, ethically, it is my responsibility to replace it.
Laws are for those with no ethics.
Punishment, is insanity.

Be real... Law protects you and also offers guidance. Law also protects ethics which man sees to misplace when not in sight.
.
[/quote]
No, the sinful judgmentalism of 'morality' is rather... flexible.
Ethics is born of unconditional Love and is NEVER conditional!
Love provides all the 'guidance' necessary. (as if there were a 'choice' in the matter.. guidance implies choice)
And I'm not even going into how the "law protects me" or anyone. Ever read the news?
Yeah, get real! *__-

[Namelesss]

There is no free-will/choice, who and what we are at the moment will manifest.

How do you know that?

Better yet, rather than questioning how I found that, why not simply think about it before the automatic dismissal?
You might find meaning. Perhaps it might end some confusion?
But the ego does love to feel all warm and self-righteous in judgment and punishment, so superior!

[Namelesss]

Thank you for the conversation, jerlands.
I am seeming to repeat and an tired.
One final Perspective;

The entire old testament is the attempt of man to 'save himself' by following the laws and rituals, etc...
Man has been given the opportunity to explore all and every means to 'save himself' (from drowning in ego/ignorance/sin), sufficient rope, and more...
And has failed.
The new testament makes the old one obsolete, irrelevant!
The very simplicity of the message... all about unconditional Love! No laws, no rituals, just Love!

[jerlands]

Justice entered the conversation when I asserted it was the bible which provided western civilization a notion of it during the exodus. It was you who made the implication between justice and injustice, which you should be able to see... the difference.

Oh, I should, should I? *__-
So, you have suggestions for God? That seems to follow, as you are sufficiently vain to judge God.
Since you are so much more thoughtful on such judgmental topics, why don't you share with me, and all the rest of the peepers, the exact border, as you see it, between 'justice' and 'injustice', other than the vain, judgmental thoughts/ego of 'the beholder'?

Where did I bring "God" into that? I merely pointed out there is a difference between justice and injustice which you seem to think the same?

The Golden Rule, law of reciprocity, implies to give as you would want to receive. It does not imply NOT to give.

Please, check it out. You are simply laboring under a mistranslation that, ultimately fails completely if one can actually critically examine it!
Otherwise, believe as you must.

So you don't see value in the "Golden Rule?"

Proverbs 13:24: Whoever spares the rod hates their children, but the one who loves their children is careful to discipline them. Love is a big word that isn't well defined other than desire. It isn't punishment that injures but injustice.

Well, one more thing that can be deleted from the bible, the command to beat your children with rods. How many idiot pseudoXtians have used that one to justify their sin (blasphemy)!
Sorry, that trash is gone! Good riddance!
The 'love' of which you speak, is the dark simulacrum of the conditional thoughts/ego.
The 'love' that discriminates, that lives and dies, that passes, that, usually barely rises above chemical animal lust and need to reproduce.
You obviously have yet to experience the unconditional Love of which Jesus demonstrated/taught.

First, the literal interpretation of "the rod" might give the impression of the a whipping rod but a rod was a form of measurement in the day. So.. basically it's saying we should judge our children's development and behavior and guide them appropriately. Second, corporeal punishment is to this day controversial and there is good indication it can be beneficial, Evidence Favoring the Use of Disciplinary Spanking. The reason it's been banned in our society is misuse and abuse which is rampant.

Love is the dissolution of ego (all) boundaries.
The Universal solvent of the Alchemists that transforms the 'base-metal' and leaves the 'pure gold'!
Unconditional Love = Enlightenment.

True, unconditional Love is ALWAYS Known by It's unconditional Virtues; Compassion, Empathy, Sympathy, Gratitude, Humility, Charity (Charity is never taking more than your share of anything, ever!), Honesty, Happiness, Faith...
ALWAYS!

'The 'conditional' ego 'desires'...

“Your task is not to seek for Love, but merely to seek and find all the barriers within yourself that you have built against it.” - Rumi

tat tvam asi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tat_Tvam_Asi)

You're blind in history if you believe that. Every structure expresses a philosophy.

Let me elucidate;
The philosophy that I said was an utter failure is the one that says that retribution and punishment and retaliation will somehow teach the 'offender' a lesson so she'll make 'better choices' next time.
It is THAT that history up to the moment has demonstrated a failure.
Perhaps a 'new' way to look at things.
Perhaps Love?

You seem very vague in your definition of the word "love" which in you appear to separate out justice, law and order so would you again elucidate specifically to what you're referring.
.

[jerlands]

Thank you for the conversation, jerlands.
I am seeming to repeat and an tired.
One final Perspective;

The entire old testament is the attempt of man to 'save himself' by following the laws and rituals, etc...
Man has been given the opportunity to explore all and every means to 'save himself' (from drowning in ego/ignorance/sin), sufficient rope, and more...
And has failed.
The new testament makes the old one obsolete, irrelevant!
The very simplicity of the message... all about unconditional Love! No laws, no rituals, just Love!

Run off then coward!