But is there a role in life for this kind of hopeless idealism? Is there a place in the world for people who can ignore the accusations of hypocrisy and unrealistic fantasy and keep their eyes fixed on the ideal? Or are we all pragmatists nowadays?
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Steve3007 wrote:John Lennon's song (which he said should really have been co-credited to Yoko Ono) often seems to be used as the ultimate example of hopeless hippy idealism/hypocrisy. In particular, the line "imagine no possessions" is easy to pour scorn on, given Lennon's considerable material wealth. ("Some people don't have to imagine it John, with your pink Rolls Royce and your fancy white house with a big piano in it...")"Imagine" is one of my all time favorite songs. It is my understanding that John Lennon came from a humble background and worked his way up to a top
But is there a role in life for this kind of hopeless idealism? Is there a place in the world for people who can ignore the accusations of hypocrisy and unrealistic fantasy and keep their eyes fixed on the ideal? Or are we all pragmatists nowadays?
It is my understanding that John Lennon came from a humble background and worked his way up to a top entertainer and riches.He did indeed. There is (or at least has been) a tendency in British culture to resent other people's material wealth, even if it is self-made (or even because it is self-made). Perhaps the cynicism is/was more pronounced in his home country than in the US.
Taking the line "imagine no possessions" out of context does not make your point.My point was that the line is, as you've said, often taken out of context and used with cynicism to cast doubt on the sincerity of the idealism in the song. Clearly the song is asking us to consider the idea that material possessions divide us and to imagine the idealized concept of a world without material envy. Of course, when that idea is considered, the cynics point out that a world without personal material possessions has been tried, and it didn't seem to work out entirely as planned.
"Imagine" is a profound song by an accomplished artist. It brings hope and tears to my eyes when I hear it, it makes me want to be a better person. It was/is meant to stir humans to be better, thus the gifted words of a rich man who shared his talent with the world, probably knowing it doesn't always bring the desired intention or reward.It's good to see the world isn't completely cynical.
Even men with steel hearts love to see a dog on the pitch.Funnily enough, that line was written by a man who lives very close to where John Lennon came from, in Merseyside, England. I guess, in its own way, it expresses a similar idea to "Imagine". Even the granite-faced, flat-cap-wearing, dour men at a non-league football match who's steel hearts mirror their hard lives can enjoy a moment of fun when a dog runs onto the pitch. "It generates a warmth around the ground that augers well for mankind. And that's what life's about."
Thank you, Steve3007, for understanding that it was not you I was addressing but those who take lyrics out of context.No problemo.
I also think that being poor or without riches doesn't make people saints. Poorer neighborhoods show us that jealousy and crime lives there too.Yes, to use a horrible modern business expression: it's the "value added" that counts.
So "imagine no possessions" is for all people to ponder.And also, I think song lyrics that appear to contain a moral or political message should never be taken entirely literally, even if they appear to be overtly political. It should always be remembered that they are primarily art.
I'm reading this thread. Many people don't realise that for about the first decade of his successful musical career, John Lennon got rid of 95 percent of his yearly gross income, before taxes. He wrote about it in a song, too.Yes. It was forcibly removed by the British Government ("Don't ask me what you want it for/ah ah Mr Wilson/If you don't want to pay some more/ah ah Mr Heath."), In that example, I guess the words can be taken pretty literally as a comment on late 60s/early 70s British taxation policy. (A quote from a finance minister of the time: "we're going to squeeze the rich until the pips squeek.")
In Toronto a couple made love from beginning to end in front of an entire baseball stadium of people. During a Blue Jay's game. They have built a hotel with windows that open to the field, and the couple performed there. Nobody was watching the game! No charges were laid, because there was no crime committed, apparently; they were in their private space or something.Great stuff. The Beatles wrote a song called "Blue Jay Way". I wonder if it was written about that incident (and then possibly sent back in time).
Steve3007 wrote:Sorry to all the readers who were not there to live in the sixties.
Sorry to any readers who don't know what I'm on about here.
Sorry to all the readers who were not there to live in the sixties. If the roaring twenties created a playground of the world for the nouveau riche, then in the sixties it was the turn of the common person to jump into life with both feet first.Maybe. Although I was born in the sixties and my parents have commented in the past, with reference to the old cliche that "if you can remember the sixties then you weren't there" that they were there and, sadly, can remember them. No turning on, tuning in and dropping out. Just screaming kids.
Since the Beatles broke up, the world has been coming to a very, very slowly developing halt.If the line by the poet Phillip Larkin is true...
The petrification of societyThat's an interesting image (which you introduced in the preceding passage). But I guess, really, perhaps, it's a re-run of the "bread and circuses" and the decline of the Roman Empire.
the forced equalizationIsn't that equalization a regrettable but unavoidable irony? It's like the equalization of cultures created by the fact that most of us have greater access to international travel than our forbears. In the olden days, before there was a McDonalds in every town and city in the world, perhaps the world was more vibrant and diverse but almost all of us would have been unaware of it. The ability to experience the world's diversity is what destroys that diversity.
Steve3007 wrote: the line "imagine no possessions" is easy to pour scorn on, given Lennon's considerable material wealth.That might depend on exactly what he meant by that line. I have no idea what he actually did mean but I do know from my own experience that possessions can weigh you down and become a real burden and I can well see how divesting yourself of them could be a very positive and liberating exercise. Maybe John was happier when he was poor and is lamenting his subsequent good fortune, who knows?
-1- wrote:I'm reading this thread. Many people don't realize that for about the first decade of his successful musical career, John Lennon got rid of 95 percent of his yearly gross income, before taxes.'Imagine all the people sharing all the world'
He wrote about it in a song, too.
I personally agree with the lyrics in "Imagine", but musically I liked the Beatles' hits more than any of the solo efforts of any of the boys after they broke up. The Beatles' hits may have less or no political or meaningful appeal, but their musical accomplishment was much greater together than each singly.
.....
But this is not about the Beatles, this thread. It's about a dog on a bitch. In front of an entire stadium of onlookers. And who said the Britons are a cold-blooded type?
That might depend on exactly what he meant by that line. I have no idea what he actually did mean but I do know from my own experience that possessions can weigh you down and become a real burden and I can well see how divesting yourself of them could be a very positive and liberating exercise. Maybe John was happier when he was poor and is lamenting his subsequent good fortune, who knows?I think he probably meant roughly what you've said here. Possessions divide and burden people.
'Imagine all the people sharing all the world'That was the point of the OP. Clearly if you take a pragmatic view and start thinking of the mundane practicalities of the problem, then "all the people sharing all the world" is a pipe dream. But I was wondering if there is still a place in the world for pipe dreams despite the fact that they obviously can't be directly translated into government taxation policy.
It is not easy if you try. Just think of the realities; the need for taxes...
I find it interesting that the Quiet Beatle was George Harrison and he was the one that got irate enough to write the song 'Taxman'. With a little help from his friend...Yes. Ironic. A very, very specific, matter-of-fact song about early 1970's punitive taxation policy by the British governments of the time. (Lead, as the song reminds us, by Mr Wilson and Mr Heath.)
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