Philosophy Discussion Forums | A Humans-Only Club for Open-Minded Discussion & Debate

[Rr6]

Atreyu---But, to at least answer your question, the fourth dimension is the dimension of space which we perceive as time. The first three dimensions of space we can easily cognize as space. Dimensions of space beyond three we normally cognize as time, even though we can learn to cognize them as space as well, although it's not easy. And I'll give you something to start with: the timeline. The timeline is representing time as a line, i.e. space. Think about it, do your research, then come back

If you would have been clear to begin with I wouldn't have asked.

Time is inherent/innate to XYZ spatial dimensions.

I'm satisfied with my research. If and when you have some new information, that, you believe I'm not aware of please.

If you want to add to or invalidate any of my comments as stated, please offer some rational, logical common sense for your statements.

You have not done that to date and I doubt you will anytime in near future. Only time will tell, so we need to keep our eyes and mind wide open not narrow and closed. imho

r6

[Rainman]

time is a concept...like yards, metres, pounds. It cannot be perceived. Time does not exist in this Observable Universe. It's merely a concept that is useful in modelling.

[Rr6]

time is a concept...like yards, metres, pounds. It cannot be perceived. Time does not exist in this Observable Universe. It's merely a concept that is useful in modelling.

Space-time concept has been around meany years now.

Most humans a have common sense ideas of what time is except Atryeu, who doesn't believe space exists. Go figure.

Few grasp simple concept on a cosmic scale of occupied and non-occupied space.

So space, of space is measured with meters, yard feet inches etc within finite set of XYZ. Simple enough.

Space, of space-time, is not as clear cut.

Let us assume the space of space-time is some specific distances as vectors with the the XYZ set.

So then, what is the time in space-time? According to Rainman, that time in space-time is only a metaphysical-1, mind/intellect/concept.

That is partially true however, it is also true that we observed time, and just as we measure space, in feet, meters etc, we also measure the space-of-time in seconds, hours, days, years etc....

Any vector is a space-time vector.

A property of space-time is gravity..Are the any other propertys of space-time? What exactly is this medium we call space, in space-time?

Positive shaped pace = gravity

Observed Time = frequency ergo topology of sine-wave ^v^v^ or as \/\/\/

Negative shaped space = dark energy.

In this scenario, I believe space-time has two property's,

1} gravity---positive shaped outer surface of toroidal vector

2} dark energy----negative shaped inner surface of the same toroidal vector.

3} Observed Time--- frequency ^v^ that is motion and has direction ergo also a vector within the torus ergo the body of the torus.

( ^v )( v^ ) is bisected cross section of torus.

These toroidal vector ideas came to me from my exploration prime numbers as found on a four levels/lines

..1........5..7.......11...13..........17...19..........23....outer surface gravity peak of abstract quasi-great circle

0............6.............12..................18................24..inside peak of sine-wave time frequency
.......3...........9................15..................21...........inside trough of sine-wave time frequency

.....2...4......8..10..........14..16...........20...22........inner surface of dark energy peak of an

abstract, quasi-great circle

This above four level set is the inside-outed version of my original discovery-- see below ---, of a four level numerical set, that, is very similar, not exactly the same, to Arthur Youngs explorations of a four level numerical set as found in his book 'The Reflexive Universe';

0...........6...........12................18...............24....
..1.......5..7.......11..13.........17....19.........23......
....2...4......8..10........14...16..........20...22.........
......3...........9..............15................21.............

[Rainman]

Time is only complicated in modelling theories. In reality, in the Observable Universe, Time is merely a concept and does not "exist". In reality, time is similar to a mile, a pound, or a metre. They are concepts to help us understand our surroundings, but, concepts do not exist in and of themselves. So to speak of "travelling in time" only makes sense in models...not in reality. Or to say that Time can interact physically with gravity can only be said in models...not in reality because, of course, Time is only a concept and gravity "exists". To simplify...I, physically, interact with gravity all my life but never with time. I think it is important to keep concepts and modelling very separate from the "real" physical, observable Universe.

-- Updated August 1st, 2016, 12:42 pm to add the following --

Re: Occupied and non-occupied space. Again, those concepts only exist in the world of Universe modelling. In reality, in the Observable Universe, there is only space. Occupied space is called an "object". But the semantics between Universe Modellers and the rest of us is endlessly debatable.

[Rr6]

For most humans, except Atryeu, it is obvious what space is and none have ever offer any rational, logical common sense that invalidates any of my givens as stated.

2} Occupied space is;

.....2a} fermions ( matter ) and bosons ergo observed time/frequency^v^v/motion/direction and magnitude,

.....2b} gravity,

......2c} dark energy.

There exist a metaphysical-1, mind/intellect/concept to each of the occupied spaces above.

Many have shown little to no concept to existence of a cosmic heirachy with all the exists is catagorized appropriately;

1} metaphysical-1, mind/intellect/concepts,
.....1a} absolute truths
......1b} relative truths

------------------line-of-demarcation----------------------------------------

2} macro-infinite, non-occupied space,

3} finite, occupied space Universe / Uni-Verse.

r6

time is a concept...like yards, metres, pounds. It cannot be perceived. Time does not exist in this Observable Universe. It's merely a concept that is useful in modelling.

Space-time concept has been around meany years now.
Most humans a have common sense ideas of what time is except Atryeu, who doesn't believe space exists. Go figure.
Few grasp simple concept on a cosmic scale of occupied and non-occupied space.
So space, of space is measured with meters, yard feet inches etc within finite set of XYZ. Simple enough.
Space, of space-time, is not as clear cut.
Let us assume the space of space-time is some specific distances as vectors with the the XYZ set.
So then, what is the time in space-time? According to Rainman, that time in space-time is only a metaphysical-1, mind/intellect/concept.
That is partially true however, it is also true that we observed time, and just as we measure space, in feet, meters etc, we also measure the space-of-time in seconds, hours, days, years etc....
Any vector is a space-time vector.
A property of space-time is gravity..Are the any other propertys of space-time? What exactly is this medium we call space, in space-time?
Positive shaped pace = gravity
Observed Time = frequency ergo topology of sine-wave ^v^v^ or as \/\/\/
Negative shaped space = dark energy.
In this scenario, I believe space-time has two property's,
1} gravity---positive shaped outer surface of toroidal vector
2} dark energy----negative shaped inner surface of the same toroidal vector.
3} Observed Time--- frequency ^v^ that is motion and has direction ergo also a vector within the torus ergo the body of the torus.

( ^v )( v^ ) is bisected cross section of torus.

These toroidal vector ideas came to me from my exploration prime numbers as found on a four levels/lines

..1........5..7.......11...13..........17...19..........23....outer surface gravity peak of abstract quasi-great circle

0............6.............12..................18................24..inside peak of sine-wave time frequency
.......3...........9................15..................21...........inside trough of sine-wave time frequency

.....2...4......8..10..........14..16...........20...22........inner surface of dark energy peak of an

abstract, quasi-great circle

This above four level set is the inside-outed version of my original discovery-- see below ---, of a four level numerical set, that, is very similar, not exactly the same, to Arthur Youngs explorations of a four level numerical set as found in his book 'The Reflexive Universe';

0...........6...........12................18...............24....
..1.......5..7.......11..13.........17....19.........23......
....2...4......8..10........14...16..........20...22.........
......3...........9..............15................21.............

[Rainman]

Help me out. How did we "observe" time?

[Rr6]

Help me out. How did we "observe" time?

Same way we observe any occupied space, occupied space via temporality of brain-- temporal lobes -- that is finite, and only observes beginnings and ending finite's within any spatial/spacial dimension.

At quantum level we see beginning and endings via a sine-wave frequency pattern.

http://www.livestrong.com/article/23820 ... functions/
.."..The Facts

.....Researchers speculate that the temporal lobe has several functions, including regulating hearing, processing visual inputs, making sense of verbal material such as speaking and reading, and storing long-term memories, according to the Centre for Neuro Skills. The temporal lobe also contributes to your personality and is important in your sexual functioning.

...In addition, your language functions are directed by the temporal lobe. Even understanding music and appreciating art, which are non-verbal communications, starts in the temporal lobe.
Right Brain vs. Left Brain

....As with most regions of the brain, the temporal lobe is also divided into right brain-left brain functions. The right temporal lobe controls the left side of the body, and the left temporal lobe controls the right side of the body, according to Merck. Thus, if you see something with only your left eye, it's processed by the right temporal lobe.......

r6

[Rainman]

I think you are mistaking observing Time for observing the "time piece". You can see a clock but not an hour. You can observe the passing of a year but not the year itself. To extend the analogy...you can see a 8 feet of 2x4 but not "feet". You can physically feel the weight of a pound of meat but not the "pound". Hours, seconds, years are all concepts. They cannot be observed. Time does not occupy space any more than does a Unicorn.

[Rr6]

"Rainman--I think you are mistaking observing Time for observing the "time piece".

Human is a timepiece? See temporal lobes and temporality from previous post again below.

You can see a clock but not an hour.

Yes will do sometimes see seconds, minutes hours pass/motion/energy on a clock. We feel/sense ergo observe the passage of time.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>arrow-of-time>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
<<<< past OUT <<< ( * | * ) <<<< IN <<<< future <<<<<<<
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> arrow-of-time>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Many people, if not also many other animals, have a biological clock sense ergo a genetic clock.

You can observe the passing of a year but not the year itself.

Huh?

To extend the analogy...you can see a 8 feet of 2x4 but not "feet".

Irrespective of the identiy we assign to a piece of lumber we osberved it with eyes and/or touch/feel. Observation is time. To feel is observed time.

You can physically feel the weight of a pound of meat but not the "pound".

Again, identifier is metaphysical-1, mind/intellect/concept we attach to the space-time exxperience/observation. Ive laid this out very clearly in many posts in many threads.

Feeling is observing. Experiencing is observing. Observation can only occur as time ergo terminal begninning and ending times and the duration in between.

| = 2D slice of 3D time

( * | * )

Hours, seconds, years are all concepts. They cannot be observed. Time does not occupy space any more than does a Unicorn.

Observation is time. Observation takes time. Feeling is time. Feeling takes time. Experience is time. Experience takes time.

Time is beginning, ending and the duration inbetween

<<<< past OUT ( * | * ) IN future <<<<<<

temporality

1.
the state of existing within or having some relationship with time.

Temporal lobes

http://www.livestrong.com/article/23820 ... functions/
.."..The Facts

.....Researchers speculate that the temporal lobe has several functions, including regulating hearing, processing visual inputs, making sense of verbal material such as speaking and reading, and storing long-term memories, according to the Centre for Neuro Skills. The temporal lobe also contributes to your personality and is important in your sexual functioning.

...In addition, your language functions are directed by the temporal lobe. Even understanding music and appreciating art, which are non-verbal communications, starts in the temporal lobe.
Right Brain vs. Left Brain

....As with most regions of the brain, the temporal lobe is also divided into right brain-left brain functions. The right temporal lobe controls the left side of the body, and the left temporal lobe controls the right side of the body, according to Merck. Thus, if you see something with only your left eye, it's processed by the right temporal lobe.......

At quantum scales if not also larger scales we observe a frequency \/\/\/\/\/\/ that occurs over time and has magnitude an direction { trajectory }.

1) We observe occupied space.
...1a) we deduce an absolute/true true non-occupied space,
....1b) we observe relative non-occupied spaces,
....1c) we apply metaphysical-1, mind/intellect/concept identifiers to occupied space.

2) We observe time.
..2a) we observe physical/energy/reality/motion/frequency ^v^v or as \/\/\
..2b) we observe relative time via various speeds,
...2c) we apply metaphysical-1, mind/intellect/concept identifiers to time.

Location is not everything because timing is also critical. Timing is time temporal, wave ^v^v,frequency, rhythm, ebb and flow, peak and trough, come and go, past and future, beginning and ending, yesterday-today-tommorrow.

Space-time is ....................................................as eternally existent, finite occupied space Universe.

Space-time is not the macro-infinite non-occupied space that embraces our finite, occupied space Universe.

r6

[Rainman]

To say that "feeling" the passage of time is a scientific observation is not so scientific to my mind. Feelings are very unscientific. Right now I feel hungry. Does that mean that "hungry" exists? No, it means my stomach acids exist. Watch a clock...watch a minute go by digitally. Did you observe time passing? No...you saw clock hands move or electronic readouts change. You did not see time pass. You saw physical motion of real things. You did not sense or feel time passing. You sensed and felt the motion of physical things (clock hands or digital readout). Your temporal lobes are useful in observing physical objects...not imaginary concepts.

Sorry, I can not go further in you explanation until you show me how you can observe time.

[Rr6]

0) http://science.howstuffworks.com/warp-speed2.htm
..."That's why we need to look at Einstein's later theory, the General Theory of Relativity, which describes how gravity affects the shape of space---ergo occupied space ---and flow of time-- ebb and flow, motion/frequency ^v^ \/\/\/

1) We feel/sense ergo observe the passage of time.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>arrow-of-time>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
<<<< past OUT <<< ( * | * ) <<<< IN <<<< future <<<<<<<
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> arrow-of-time>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

2} Many people, if not also many other animals, seemingly a have genetic clock.

3) Feeling is observing. Experiencing is observing. Observation can only occur as time ergo terminal begnining and ending times and the duration in between.

4) Observation is time. Observation takes time. Feeling is time. Feeling takes time. Experience is time. Experience takes time.

5) Time is beginning, ending and the duration inbetween
...5a) <<<< past OUT ( * | * ) IN future <<<<<<

6) temporality1.the state of existing within or having some relationship with time.

7) Temporal lobes
http://www.livestrong.com/article/23820 ... functions/
.."..The Facts
.....Researchers speculate that the temporal lobe has several functions, including regulating hearing, processing visual inputs, making sense of verbal material such as speaking and reading, and storing long-term memories, according to the Centre for Neuro Skills. The temporal lobe also contributes to your personality and is important in your sexual functioning.
...In addition, your language functions are directed by the temporal lobe. Even understanding music and appreciating art, which are non-verbal communications, starts in the temporal lobe.
Right Brain vs. Left Brain
....As with most regions of the brain, the temporal lobe is also divided into right brain-left brain functions. The right temporal lobe controls the left side of the body, and the left temporal lobe controls the right side of the body, according to Merck. Thus, if you see something with only your left eye, it's processed by the right temporal lobe.......

We observe occupied space.
...8a) we deduce an absolute/true true non-occupied space,
....b) we observe relative non-occupied spaces,
....8c) we apply metaphysical-1, mind/intellect/concept identifiers to occupied space.

9) We observe time.
..9a) we observe physical/energy/reality/motion/frequency ^v^v or as \/\/\
..9b) we observe relative time via various speeds,
...9c) we apply metaphysical-1, mind/intellect/concept identifiers to time.

10) Location is not everything because timing is also critical. Timing is time temporal, wave ^v^v,frequency, rhythm, ebb and flow, peak and trough, come and go, past and future, beginning and ending, yesterday-today-tommorrow.

11) Space-time is ....................................................as eternally existent, finite occupied space Universe.

r6

-- Updated August 2nd, 2016, 8:28 pm to add the following --

http://www.thekeyboard.org.uk/What%20is%20Time.htm

..."What do I think?

...Although the model we have used describing time as another dimension agrees with relativity, it does have some unfortunate consequences, it says that the future is already determined! I dislike the idea that the future may be 'already there' just waiting for us to pass over it, because if true, where does that leave destiny and freewill? (See Do we have free will?) If on the other hand the future is not already there, then where does that leave the special theory of relativity ? If time is 'real' in the same way that the other three dimensions are real, this would indicate that it does exists and is there waiting for our consciousness 'to move over it'. How much flexibility that allows for the future I do not know, but I must confess I don't like the sound of it.

....I prefer to imagine time as being like our jelly cube, a fixed dimension that can be sliced up at any angle, but an 'empty' dimension, a blank canvas waiting for us to put our mark on it. I just do not like the idea that just because time exists as a dimension, all events in time also have to exist.

....The truth of the matter is yet to be revealed, but personally, I have trouble in accepting the idea of the future being fixed, I believe that I exercise free will.

.....I think that time is the biggest mystery of them all, and that it is somehow tied into and dependent upon our consciousness.

.....Not much of an answer is it? But how do you explain something that is so apparent to us and so completely necessary to our every experience in life, yet has no form? It is as though it exists only in our minds even though its effects are perceived to be everywhere throughout the universe."........

0) http://science.howstuffworks.com/warp-speed2.htm
..."That's why we need to look at Einstein's later theory, the General Theory of Relativity, which describes how gravity affects the shape of space---ergo occupied space ---and flow of time-- ebb and flow, motion/frequency ^v^ \/\/\/
1) We feel/sense ergo observe the passage of time.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>arrow-of-time>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
<<<< past OUT <<< ( * | * ) <<<< IN <<<< future <<<<<<<
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> arrow-of-time>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
We observe occupied space.
...8a) we deduce an absolute/true true non-occupied space,
....b) we observe relative non-occupied spaces,
....8c) we apply metaphysical-1, mind/intellect/concept identifiers to occupied space.
9) We observe time.
..9a) we observe physical/energy/reality/motion/frequency ^v^v or as \/\/\
..9b) we observe relative time via various speeds,
...9c) we apply metaphysical-1, mind/intellect/concept identifiers to time.
10) Location is not everything because timing is also critical. Timing is time temporal, wave ^v^v,frequency, rhythm, ebb and flow, peak and trough, come and go, past and future, beginning and ending, yesterday-today-tommorrow.
11) Space-time is ....................................................as eternally existent, finite occupied space Universe.

[Gordon975]

In this topic what is being suggested is that for space, time is stationary and it is only the atomic particles that matter is made from that experience the passage of time.
It follows from this argument that if for space time is stationary, space, is always at the present or now point in time.
It also follows with this argument that the past and the future exist either side of space, and that space itself is in fact a condition or position in time at the now point.

[Present awareness]

The reason one may not step outside of the "now" is because there is no place "outside" of space. There is no past or future on either side of space, because space does not have "sides".

If space is consider to be "that which is not there" then anything which "is" there (like matter), is contained within space.

[Gordon975]

Present awareness Wrote:

The reason one may not step outside of the "now" is because there is no place "outside" of space.
There is no past or future on either side of space, because space does not have "sides".

If space is consider to be "that which is not there" then anything which "is" there (like matter), is contained within space.

In what you say you are explaining how space exits this does not explain why space exists or what it really is.
We can explain how matter exists and behaves but not why it exists or what really is.
Existing physics is now beginning to fail to explain parts of the observed universe and
cannot create a unified theory of everything.
Our approach to how science has interpreted the world has been based on the existence of life and
its adaption to its environment through reproductive natural selection, humans as all other life
experience and interpret time and space only to successfully adapt in this way.
Space and the universe has no discernible finite dimension the suggestion of this topic is that
perhaps it represents a condition of time because time has no physical dimension.
I have been unable to discover any other reference to the concept I have raised here anywhere else so
perhaps it is just another one of those strange theories to add the list but I hope by raising it in this forum
it may be considered and seriously explored.

[Rr6]

....
Space: macro-infinite non-occupied space embraces our finite, occupied space Universe. This is not rocket science. This is rather simple, rational, logical common sense. imho

The truth exists, for those who seek it, those who don't and those who scoff at it.
https://www.google.com/search?q=define+ ... 8&oe=utf-8 .
..." Space:
..................a continuous area or expanse that is free, available, or unoccupied.
"a table took up much of the space"
synonyms: room, capacity, area, volume, expanse, extent, scope, latitude, margin, leeway, play, clearance More

"there was not enough space"
gap, interval, opening, aperture, cavity, cranny, fissure, crack, interstice, lacuna
"the space between the timbers"
an area of land that is not occupied by buildings.
"she had a love of open spaces"
synonyms: area, expanse, stretch, sweep, tract
"green spaces in the city"
a blank between printed, typed, or written words, characters, numbers, etc.
plural noun: spaces
synonyms: blank, gap, box; place
"write your name in the appropriate space"

Music
each of the four gaps between the five lines of a staff.
an interval of time (often used to suggest that the time is short, considering what has happened or been achieved in it).
"both their cars were stolen in the space of three days"
synonyms: period, span, time, duration, stretch, course, interval
"a space of seven years"

pages in a newspaper, or time between television or radio programs, available for advertising.
an area rented or sold as business premises.
noun: commercial space; plural noun: commercial spaces
the amount of paper used or needed to write about a subject.
"there is no space to give further details"
the freedom and scope to live, think, and develop in a way that suits one.
"a teenager needing her own space"

Telecommunications
one of two possible states of a signal in certain systems.
2.
the dimensions of height, depth, and width within which all things exist and move.
"the work gives the sense of a journey in space and time"
the physical universe beyond the earth's atmosphere.
noun: outer space; plural noun: outer spaces
synonyms: outer space, deep space; More
the universe, the galaxy, the solar system;
infinity
"the first woman in space"
the near vacuum extending between the planets and stars, containing small amounts of gas and dust.
Mathematics
a mathematical concept generally regarded as a set of points having some specified structure.

verb
verb: space; 3rd person present: spaces; past tense: spaced; past participle: spaced; gerund or present participle: spacing

1.
position (two or more items) at a distance from one another.
"the houses are spaced out"
synonyms: position, arrange, range, array, dispose, lay out, locate, situate, set, stand
"the chairs were spaced widely"
(in printing or writing) put blanks between (words, letters, or lines).
"the default setting is single line spacing"
2.
informal
be or become distracted, euphoric, or disoriented, especially from taking drugs; cease to be aware of one's surroundings.

Rr6--0) http://science.howstuffworks.com/warp-speed2.htm
..."That's why we need to look at Einstein's later theory, the General Theory of Relativity, which describes how gravity affects the shape of space---ergo occupied space ---and flow of time-- ebb and flow, motion/frequency ^v^ \/\/\/
1) We feel/sense ergo observe the passage of time.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>arrow-of-time>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
<<<< past OUT <<< ( * | * ) <<<< IN <<<< future <<<<<<<
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> arrow-of-time>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
2} Many people, if not also many other animals, seemingly a have genetic clock.
3) Feeling is observing. Experiencing is observing. Observation can only occur as time ergo terminal begnining and ending times and the duration in between.
4) Observation is time. Observation takes time. Feeling is time. Feeling takes time. Experience is time. Experience takes time.
5) Time is beginning, ending and the duration inbetween
...5a) <<<< past OUT ( * | * ) IN future <<<<<<
6) temporality1.the state of existing within or having some relationship with time.
7) Temporal lobes
http://www.livestrong.com/article/23820 ... functions/