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A one-of-a-kind oasis of intelligent, in-depth, productive, civil debate.

Topics are uncensored, meaning even extremely controversial viewpoints can be presented and argued for, but our Forum Rules strictly require all posters to stay on-topic and never engage in ad hominems or personal attacks.


Discuss philosophical questions regarding theism (and atheism), and discuss religion as it relates to philosophy. This includes any philosophical discussions that happen to be about god, gods, or a 'higher power' or the belief of them. This also generally includes philosophical topics about organized or ritualistic mysticism or about organized, common or ritualistic beliefs in the existence of supernatural phenomenon.
#267687
I have had this nailed down for a few years now. Just curious what religious people think religion is?

Please no silly definitions pulled from dictionaries. I am talking about the origin and original purpose that has led to modern religious practices. For me religion has a very obvious and clear beginning and there is ample evidence to back this up.
#267739
Burning ghost wrote:I have had this nailed down for a few years now. Just curious what religious people think religion is?

Please no silly definitions pulled from dictionaries. I am talking about the origin and original purpose that has led to modern religious practices. For me religion has a very obvious and clear beginning and there is ample evidence to back this up.
From my own studies of history, in particular most recently as told by J.M. Roberts the famed UK historian and professor, now deceased, in his book "History Of The World" (Penguin Books, 2002) -- history tells us that religion has existed since ancient times. Roberts surmises that during prehistory and in the Mesolithic Age, shamen appeared everywhere and their arts were chiefly superstitious.

Is that what you are getting at?

Later on, the priestly class in various civilizations then were used by warlords, kings, and pharaohs to cement their own power, with these autocrats being declared gods or sons of gods themselves.

Or is that what you are getting at?

We don't know much about the ancient Cretans or Etruscans, but we do know the Babylonians and Egyptians into Bronze Age times continued their veneration of their leaders as gods, whereas the Phoenicians and Greeks escaped this fantasy and separated gods from men. The Phoenicians and Greeks subsequent colonized the Mediterranean and thus religion and government became separate there.

The Greeks venerated their Pantheon enough to put Socrates to death when he mocked their gods and corrupted their youth.

The Romans venerated their Pantheon enough to persecute and slaughter early Christians of the first 2 centuries of the Present Era (A.D.) who did not bow down or make offerings to any Roman gods. By now certain Caesars again were declaring themselves to be gods or sons of gods however, and so thus being Christian became treasonous.

This all finally changed when Constantine issued his edict of tolerance for Christianity and all religions, which then married church and state in the Roman Empire starting at 325 A.D.

Would that be what you are getting at?

Anyway, by then Judaism was in decline and the Jews had been cast out of their capital, Jerusalem. Islam was born about 300 years later in the Arabian peninsula. Shinto would develop about that time in Japan as well. All the other major world religions in the East were already going strong.

When Rome split, and the Western Empire fell, Christianity survived there. The books and libraries of Rome did not suffer the same fate as Alexandria Egypt did time and again.

There was a long era of corruption under the Western Popes in Rome which led ultimately to the Protestant Reformation and Martin Luther around 1520.

From that point on, Christianity was divided into 3 schisms -- Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, and Protestant. This has not changed. This is where we still are today, with Catholicism and Orthodox somewhat regulated out of Rome and Istanbul, but with Protestantism foot loose and fancy free everywhere else.

The English, Dutch, and German Protestants stopped taking orders from Rome anymore, and the age of colonization of North America began, and Empiricist Philosophy gave rise to revolution in North America and in France.

So what had religion become and what is it now? It is mostly an opiate for the masses.

People use religion to find spouses and get married and raise their kids. These are ordinary homespun people and religion provides them with their only available philosophy. Jesus is Immanuel Kant for most of them. And God has become their Socrates, Plato, and Aristotle.

Today in America the GOP uses religion to woo votes. The other major party (DEM's) tends to avoid religion and woo anyone else who wants to keep church and state still separate under the 1st Amendment. Thus the GOP becomes anti same sex marriage while the DEM's are pro, for example.

Now tell us what YOU think. And don't forget to spell out WHY you think that way, and WHAT are your supporting data?
#267748
YIOSTHEOY wrote:
Burning ghost wrote:I have had this nailed down for a few years now. Just curious what religious people think religion is?

Please no silly definitions pulled from dictionaries. I am talking about the origin and original purpose that has led to modern religious practices. For me religion has a very obvious and clear beginning and there is ample evidence to back this up.
From my own studies of history, in particular most recently as told by J.M. Roberts the famed UK historian and professor, now deceased, in his book "History Of The World" (Penguin Books, 2002) -- history tells us that religion has existed since ancient times. Roberts surmises that during prehistory and in the Mesolithic Age, shamen appeared everywhere and their arts were chiefly superstitious.

Is that what you are getting at?

Later on, the priestly class in various civilizations then were used by warlords, kings, and pharaohs to cement their own power, with these autocrats being declared gods or sons of gods themselves.

Or is that what you are getting at?

We don't know much about the ancient Cretans or Etruscans, but we do know the Babylonians and Egyptians into Bronze Age times continued their veneration of their leaders as gods, whereas the Phoenicians and Greeks escaped this fantasy and separated gods from men. The Phoenicians and Greeks subsequent colonized the Mediterranean and thus religion and government became separate there.

The Greeks venerated their Pantheon enough to put Socrates to death when he mocked their gods and corrupted their youth.

The Romans venerated their Pantheon enough to persecute and slaughter early Christians of the first 2 centuries of the Present Era (A.D.) who did not bow down or make offerings to any Roman gods. By now certain Caesars again were declaring themselves to be gods or sons of gods however, and so thus being Christian became treasonous.

This all finally changed when Constantine issued his edict of tolerance for Christianity and all religions, which then married church and state in the Roman Empire starting at 325 A.D.

Would that be what you are getting at?

Anyway, by then Judaism was in decline and the Jews had been cast out of their capital, Jerusalem. Islam was born about 300 years later in the Arabian peninsula. Shinto would develop about that time in Japan as well. All the other major world religions in the East were already going strong.

When Rome split, and the Western Empire fell, Christianity survived there. The books and libraries of Rome did not suffer the same fate as Alexandria Egypt did time and again.

There was a long era of corruption under the Western Popes in Rome which led ultimately to the Protestant Reformation and Martin Luther around 1520.

From that point on, Christianity was divided into 3 schisms -- Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, and Protestant. This has not changed. This is where we still are today, with Catholicism and Orthodox somewhat regulated out of Rome and Istanbul, but with Protestantism foot loose and fancy free everywhere else.

The English, Dutch, and German Protestants stopped taking orders from Rome anymore, and the age of colonization of North America began, and Empiricist Philosophy gave rise to revolution in North America and in France.

So what had religion become and what is it now? It is mostly an opiate for the masses.

People use religion to find spouses and get married and raise their kids. These are ordinary homespun people and religion provides them with their only available philosophy. Jesus is Immanuel Kant for most of them. And God has become their Socrates, Plato, and Aristotle.

Today in America the GOP uses religion to woo votes. The other major party (DEM's) tends to avoid religion and woo anyone else who wants to keep church and state still separate under the 1st Amendment. Thus the GOP becomes anti same sex marriage while the DEM's are pro, for example.

Now tell us what YOU think. And don't forget to spell out WHY you think that way, and WHAT are your supporting data?
No Bob Marley?

Wait a second YIOSTHEOY... I thought you have stated philosophy and religion are "completely independent," and that philosophy must use rigor in terminology!
#267761
YIOSTHEOY wrote: Where did you get confused ??
mostly here
YIOSTHEOY wrote:.... People use religion to find spouses and get married and raise their kids. These are ordinary homespun people and religion provides them with their only available philosophy. Jesus is Immanuel Kant for most of them. And God has become their Socrates, Plato, and Aristotle.

Today in America the GOP uses religion to woo votes. The other major party (DEM's) tends to avoid religion and woo anyone else who wants to keep church and state still separate under the 1st Amendment. Thus the GOP becomes anti same sex marriage while the DEM's are pro, for example.
#267762
Aristocles wrote:
YIOSTHEOY wrote: Where did you get confused ??
mostly here
YIOSTHEOY wrote:.... People use religion to find spouses and get married and raise their kids. These are ordinary homespun people and religion provides them with their only available philosophy. Jesus is Immanuel Kant for most of them. And God has become their Socrates, Plato, and Aristotle.

Today in America the GOP uses religion to woo votes. The other major party (DEM's) tends to avoid religion and woo anyone else who wants to keep church and state still separate under the 1st Amendment. Thus the GOP becomes anti same sex marriage while the DEM's are pro, for example.
How is that confusing ??

Those are all simply observations made with my own eyes and ears. Why did that confuse you?

I am describing how other people use religion.
#267767
YIOSTHEOY wrote:
Aristocles wrote: (Nested quote removed.)

mostly here

(Nested quote removed.) and religion provides them with their only available philosophy
How is that confusing ??

Those are all simply observations made with my own eyes and ears. Why did that confuse you?

I am describing how other people use religion.
The bolded part appears as if philosophy and religion are not "completely independent," completely independent was your thesis on the art thread. Precision in wording was your concern on the physics thread.

Has Burning Ghost changed your mind? Are philosophy and religion now related?
#267770
Aristocles wrote:
YIOSTHEOY wrote: (Nested quote removed.)

How is that confusing ??

Those are all simply observations made with my own eyes and ears. Why did that confuse you?

I am describing how other people use religion.
The bolded part appears as if philosophy and religion are not "completely independent," completely independent was your thesis on the art thread. Precision in wording was your concern on the physics thread.

Has Burning Ghost changed your mind? Are philosophy and religion now related?
Try reading it again, and this time without setting up your straw man.
#267781
Post #3 seems like a nice little summary of the story so far, vis a vis the history of religion. (I don't know much about it all so will assume that it's factually accurate.)

So, Burning ghost:

I'd wager that your explanation as to where religion comes from is going to involve some stuff about human psychology and evolution. If it was me, I'd probably be saying something about substitute parents and the evolved tendency to see agency in the world as a way of surviving it and all that.
#267790
Steve3007 wrote:Post #3 seems like a nice little summary of the story so far, vis a vis the history of religion. (I don't know much about it all so will assume that it's factually accurate.)

So, Burning ghost:

I'd wager that your explanation as to where religion comes from is going to involve some stuff about human psychology and evolution. If it was me, I'd probably be saying something about substitute parents and the evolved tendency to see agency in the world as a way of surviving it and all that.
So now we are getting into Internet gambling like sports betting?

I'm glad you at least liked my overall summary.

My favorite theme about History is that it tells us how we got here.

My favorite about Philosophy is that it tells us why we think the way we do, and who is guilty of brainwashing us. In most cases it started with our parents, then our church ministers, then our school teachers, then our college professors, and finally if you went to any kind of special indoctrination for a job that was the icing on the cake.

My first job was a tour of duty with the US Military and the brainwashing classes lasted 9 months for officers.

For my first civilian job after grad school they put us into a group of newbies and that lasted one solid week.

So I too await the O/P's reply with 'baited breath.
#267800
Burning ghost wrote:I have had this nailed down for a few years now. Just curious what religious people think religion is?

Please no silly definitions pulled from dictionaries. I am talking about the origin and original purpose that has led to modern religious practices. For me religion has a very obvious and clear beginning and there is ample evidence to back this up.
Karl Marx may say religion is opium for the masses. Bob Marley may say love is his religion. Einstein may say religion without science is ignorant; science without religion is dull. YIOSTHEOY should be recognized for his historical accounts.

I would add religion is more encompassing, often an aspiration of other disciplines. I would imagine religion is on the human agenda whenever feasible. In other words, the concept appears to have become more organized when people had the luxury of contemplating the heavens, when food/water/shelter and other more physical health needs were better met to feed the mind. Perhaps it was near the time of the invention of the crop field plow, when institutions were formed from less need to travel for survival, etc (coincidentally, the birthplace of straw men!)

I would also agree with Plato that philosophy is an aspiration to better understand the heavens, the seeming wisdom to better understand what is good.

(I am not trying to be offensive or otherwise disingenuous)
Last edited by Aristocles on June 1st, 2016, 9:42 am, edited 1 time in total.
#267809
Aristocles wrote:Wait a second YIOSTHEOY... I thought you have stated philosophy and religion are "completely independent," and that philosophy must use rigor in terminology!
Please don't quote entire posts just to make some little gotcha blurb like this. Thank you.

-- Updated June 1st, 2016, 9:11 am to add the following --
YIOSTHEOY wrote:Try reading it again, and this time without setting up your straw man.
Try writing it again, WITHOUT quoting the entire post you are replying to. Thank you.

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