Philosophy Discussion Forums | A Humans-Only Club for Open-Minded Discussion & Debate

[Wilson]

Prisons exist for three valid reasons:

1) Keep those likely to re-offend out of society. This is not only violent criminals but also career criminals - burglars, serial spousal abusers, etc.

2) Deterrent effect. The threat of prison definitely deters a lot of criminal activity. If you get really angry at someone, if you didn't have to worry about going to jail, you'd be a lot more likely to assault him. If you're a burglar, you'll be a lot more limited about the houses you break into if you know you'll go to jail if you get caught. If you're thinking about embezzling from your employer, you may refrain out of fear of punishment; if there were no consequences, you'd be a lot more likely to offend.

3) Righteous vengeance among the public. This is harder to justify but anger at wrongdoers is a normal human emotion - more normal, in my opinion, than universal forgiveness - and people need to feel that the law is fair and will protect us. That's a minor factor, of course.

The problem with the original poster's point of view is that he doesn't seem to recognize that there are assholes among us - sociopaths who don't care who they hurt and in some cases delight in taking advantage of other people. Those individuals are pretty much beyond my sympathy and if something terrible happens to them - like jail - it's well deserved.

That's not to say that we don't have a lot of people in prison who shouldn't be there, and we should rethink some of our policies - but I believe that part of the reason crime has decreased in certain areas is longer jail sentences for career criminals. The objective of our legal system should be primarily to protect the law-abiding members of our society.

[JOGeran]

I personally believe that having some way of stopping criminals from committing crimes is necessary, otherwise there wouldn't be any law, however at the same time not all laws are worthy to be enforced. If the crime directly deals harm to someone because of the act for example Murder, Stealing, Rape, then it would make sense that there should be a prison sentence for it otherwise people would have little reason not to, but laws that don't directly harm anyone(apart from maybe the person doing) shouldn't have sentences

Unfortunately I don't think a society without pointless laws forbidding things that don't harm others is possible at the moment.

[Hosshere]

Well, please allow comment on this from someone who has actually WORKED in the prison system in South Carolina for the past 11 years.... (bet you didn't see that one coming, did you?) I totally agree on the "victimless crime" portion of your statement. Locking someone up because they had a bag of weed on them that they weren't trying to sell to anyone else is senseless, as well as prostitution or gambling laws. But, I must say that unfortunately, there are people out there that are not fit to live in polite and proper society. We can look for Pollyanna- lovey dovey excuses for these creeps from here on out, but the fact is, they're scumbags. There are people fathering children every 5 seconds in this country every day with no intention whatsoever of ever acting as an actual father to the child once it's born. If I could begin to count the number of prisoners I've worked with that were raised by their grandmothers because they never knew their father, and their mothers are too busy partying to be bothered with raising them, I could amaze you with the information. So, Grandma has five kids to raise and she's 71 years old.....how do we think that's going to work out? These children are being raised by Grandma and spoiled by her with anything they ever want handed to them, and they finish high school ( at least some actually do) with no concept of working for anything. "The devil will find work for idle hands to do." These kids end up stealing for drug money or because they want the latest pair of shoes that are fashionable, etc... Not to mention the problem of career criminals that never seem to be smart enough to make their first mistake and learn from it. Somebody that has stolen something from someone that went out and worked his butt off to buy it needs to be taken out of society, period. I speak only from the viewpoint of someone who knows what he's talking about because he's actually dealt with it daily. Plus, I come from a long line of law enforcement-my grandpa, two uncles, and my dad were all cops. There will always be scumbags out there, trust me. Best policy is to lock them up!

[Hosshere]

Sorry, Scott, but to reiterate my last point-go work in the prison system a while, pal. Then come get me and preach to me about how mental wards can fix our problems.

[Wilson]

Anyone who thinks a society can function without prisons is not in touch with reality.

[Belinda]

Hosshere wrote:

There will always be scumbags out there, trust me. Best policy is to lock them up!

More money for re-education and socialisation would help some prisoners , don't you think? And the many who are beyond help could have less punitive regimes while they are detained. It was not their fault that scumbags are scumbags because taking responsibility for others' welfare has to be taught, and if they were never taught this was not their fault.

[Wilson]

More money for re-education and socialisation would help some prisoners , don't you think? And the many who are beyond help could have less punitive regimes while they are detained. It was not their fault that scumbags are scumbags because taking responsibility for others' welfare has to be taught, and if they were never taught this was not their fault.

So nothing is anyone's fault? Likewise, what good we do is of no credit to us, either, since that was an accident of birth and training. So nobody's good, nobody's bad. We shouldn't criticize anyone, we shouldn't praise anyone, including ourselves.

Reality check: Some people were taught to be good to others and disregarded their teaching, taking pleasure instead in hurting others. Others got terrible upbringing and turned out to be wonderful people.

[Hosshere]

Belinda, maybe they weren't taught to accept responsibility for their actions......but, I'm going with the assumption that 99.9% knew that prisons existed, and that prisons were where people who didn't know how to behave properly in society would end up. If somebody raped your sister or killed your dad (extreme examples, I know, but realistic ones) would you be content to send them to a hotel and give them a few lessons in social graces, then send them out the door? And besides, where would "more money for re-education and socialisation" come from? Out of thin air? No, from the taxes of honest, hardworking people like us. And it wouldn't change a thing, trust me, I've worked in the prison system for the past eleven years. I respect your opinion, but its not realistic, trust me.

[Logic_ill]

Society may need prisons for now because incarceration is a form of punishment and sometimes "rehabilitation". Maybe we can come up with some other way of dealing with criminals. I cannot think of many right now...

[Belinda]

More money for re-education and socialisation would help some prisoners , don't you think? And the many who are beyond help could have less punitive regimes while they are detained. It was not their fault that scumbags are scumbags because taking responsibility for others' welfare has to be taught, and if they were never taught this was not their fault.

So nothing is anyone's fault? Likewise, what good we do is of no credit to us, either, since that was an accident of birth and training. So nobody's good, nobody's bad. We shouldn't criticize anyone, we shouldn't praise anyone, including ourselves.

Reality check: Some people were taught to be good to others and disregarded their teaching, taking pleasure instead in hurting others. Others got terrible upbringing and turned out to be wonderful people.

While it is true that bad wrongdoers are mostly caused to be so by bad socialisation and so should not be blamed it is also true that good behaviour merits praise . It is good for us to feel happy when we see someone being good by accepting responsibility and other kind attitudes, and therefore it's natural to praise their goodness, and praising good behaviour encourages others to emulate. Blaming is also natural but, unlike praising, blaming does not make anyone happier but spreads anger and alarm.

Bringing wrongdoers to justice serves to take wrongdoers out of society, deters other would-be wrongdoers, and expresses society's disapproval. Apportioning guilt is not the same as blaming.

[Wilson]

Bringing wrongdoers to justice serves to take wrongdoers out of society, deters other would-be wrongdoers, and expresses society's disapproval. Apportioning guilt is not the same as blaming.

So you don't blame Hitler, or Stalin, or Pol Pot, or ISIS? After all, they are/were just products of bad training.

[Supine]

One problem with prisons in many countries is that they've allowed the gangs to terrorize other inmates in them. This makes gangs stronger outside of prisons because gang members are a lot less frightened and deterred to go to prison. This is the situation in most Latin American prisons and in American prisons. So, in some respects prisons only help fuel the problems outside of them.

Another problem is when you have a handful of prisons that offer more security and well being than life outside of them. Venezuela is notorious for some of the worst prisons on earth and possibly the most violent ones on earth. So, it is all the more ironic and surprising to find this remarkable prison in Venezuela. Actually, in some ways it looks more appealing than life in the City of Milwaukee. Notice they say you can do illicit drugs in this prison and no one bothers you. You are probably more bothered in the cities of America and Venezuela doing illicit drugs via the police state.

[Belinda]

Bringing wrongdoers to justice serves to take wrongdoers out of society, deters other would-be wrongdoers, and expresses society's disapproval. Apportioning guilt is not the same as blaming.

So you don't blame Hitler, or Stalin, or Pol Pot, or ISIS? After all, they are/were just products of bad training.

As I was trying to say our gut reactions of anger and fear are human and to be expected. But we need to be rational even in cases of gross cruelty and criminality. I don't know what caused those criminals you mentioned to do what they did. But don't you think it is better for all our futures when we can rationally seek for causes of gross criminality instead of simply blaming? Of course I blame people like the ones you mention but blaming does not help to me to study the causes of crimes.

I am not saying that a person who lacks human feelings has better judgement. I am saying that human reactions are not sufficient for judgements of right and wrong. You need reason too. Thus we can feel that crimes against humanity are blameworthy and also recognise that it's possible to try to find the causes of major criminality.

[Wilson]

Belinda, it sounds to me that you've decided to forgive everyone, including those who do horrible things. That's fine, but most of us don't feel that way. Anger toward wrongdoers and a desire for revenge are also qualities that are built into our DNA, and you may feel that those are emotions that are unworthy of us as a species, but that's just your opinion, and most of us don't feel that way. Personally I feel that justifiable anger is a perfectly acceptable emotion. That's not to say that I don't have a degree of sympathy for some of those who commit antisocial acts, but that sympathy certainly isn't universal.

We are all products of our inheritance and our life experiences. Rich kids who rape are the products of their DNA and upbringing, just as are poor kids are who rape. You yourself feel sympathy for bad people because of your DNA and life experiences led you in that direction. I feel much less sympathy for bad people because of my DNA and life experiences. Neither of us could be objectively proved to be right, or wrong. Having sympathy for those unworthy of it is not necessarily admirable; that sympathy might in some cases lead to bad people going free and hurting someone else. In my opinion universal forgiveness is not always a positive moral approach.

Obviously we should do what we can to prevent the development of antisocial attitudes. But once someone has reached the age where he is responsible for his actions, I feel that we should judge him almost entirely by what he does, and not for how he got that way, and we need to punish wrongdoers not only to keep society safe from them, but also because we the public need to feel that justice has been done.

[Grecorivera5150]

Society is a prison and the prison system within is just derivative of its progeny . Yes , we need a prison system. It is were people are sent who make it unbearable to exist in the greater prison.