Philosophy Discussion Forums | A Humans-Only Club for Open-Minded Discussion & Debate

[James Newell]

There are some symphonies which have very beautiful slow movements, but in the fast movements, that beauty is lost.

Therefore, somehow speed is related to beauty in consciousness of humans, at least.

Is it even possible to have a high level of beauty in fast music? What kinds of psychological processes could be at the base of these effects? What aspects of Kant's noumenon, of the ground of consciousness, of transcendence does this hint at?

[AlmsFor-An-Ex-Lepper]

Speed is higher tempo, excitement of some sort, in contrast to slower tempos that can suggest calmness, serenity or beauty. It's not so much that speed is related to beauty, as related to mood and emotional cues that the composer of the piece is trying to evoke in the listener. For example, Rock & Roll is born out of excitement and the exuberance of youth, in contrast to Blues that is born of life's experiences, usually tough experiences, if not tragic. The tempos between the two are quite different.

All music attempts to tell a story, and if we relate to that story and tempo, we often call it beautiful as it strikes a chord within us. So fast tempo can be beautiful, if you relate to it and are in the correct mood at the time. Music can reflect the mood we are in, or we can use music to manipulate our mood. As always, beauty lies in the eyes of the beholder...and their disposition at the time.

[James Newell]

You might be correct that perception of beauty is related to mood, and mood is not all that related to time.

I'm thinking as I write so anything here is seriously tentative.

If you are correct, then time is more related to physical processes, if physical processes actually exist, than it is to psychological processes. It's not that time is completely unrelated to psychological processes. It is that time is very little related to some aspects of psychological processes.

very little related: That might mean that there is a process which counteracts time to some extent in psychological processes which process does not counteract time in physical processes. Or it could mean that various moods, various kinds of beauty, various kinds of specific aspects of perception of music, are all dimensions, and we select only a certain number of dimensions to interact with in any stretch of time. Thus, when we interact with beauty and mood, we choose not to interact so much with time. We could interact fully with time if we wished, but we don't. Or it could mean something else that I haven't thought of yet.

It looks like you have various possible directions in which to go if you wish to further develop your idea that beauty is more related to mood and less related to time.

[AlmsFor-An-Ex-Lepper]

You might be correct that perception of beauty is related to mood, and mood is not all that related to time.

I'm thinking as I write so anything here is seriously tentative.

If you are correct, then time is more related to physical processes, if physical processes actually exist, than it is to psychological processes. It's not that time is completely unrelated to psychological processes. It is that time is very little related to some aspects of psychological processes.

I would suggest that both are connected, and that psychological processes and physical processes are intimately intertwined. For example, being ill is a physical state that impacts upon our psychological state, commonly lowering our mood. Conversely, stress is nothing more than an attitude towards circumstances, yet too much stress can manifest physical problems, such as a duodenal ulcer. Each is able to impact upon the other.

I'm sure you've heard the expression, "time flies when you're having fun", and we all know that time drags when we're not having fun. So too when we are engrossed in something and "lose track of time" due to how absorbed we were. None are comments on time per se, but perceptions of lost or gained time. So, these comments are not of objective reality, for time has not changed, only our perception of time had changed.

very little related: That might mean that there is a process which counteracts time to some extent in psychological processes which process does not counteract time in physical processes. Or it could mean that various moods, various kinds of beauty, various kinds of specific aspects of perception of music, are all dimensions, and we select only a certain number of dimensions to interact with in any stretch of time. Thus, when we interact with beauty and mood, we choose not to interact so much with time. We could interact fully with time if we wished, but we don't. Or it could mean something else that I haven't thought of yet.

It looks like you have various possible directions in which to go if you wish to further develop your idea that beauty is more related to mood and less related to time.

Yes. There's also the phenomena of adrenalin, and how that impacts upon perception of time. Athletes term it as "being in the zone", whereby they are so focussed, and have got their adrenalin pumping through their veins, that time seems to slow down, as they have more time to think about choices and observe things immediately around them. I've had this happen to me only on a handful of occasions when I played competitive sports. Or a life threatening situation, whereby again, adrenalin jumps in, allowing the mind to think faster, creating the impression that again, time has slowed...I had that happen to me in a car accident, whereby options popped up in my head, and I processed them individually until choosing the course of action that seemed most appropriate. It seemed like many seconds passed, when in fact it was milliseconds.

Being in the zone occurs with musicians too...you can see it happening in live performances when they're all smiling at each other, feeding off their performance level, often during a jam or improvisation. They all recognize that the piece is "working", and that their performances are fitting cleanly within the piece, sometimes taking it in an unexpected direction.

[James Newell]

Is there any way to get some comparisons into your points. For example, is there anything which makes time seem to slow down more than at other times, such as something in playing sports that causes more of a slowdown than something else when playing sports? For example, perhaps noticing or not noticing the cheering of the spectators, or looking more towards the ground or towards the sky, or anything else?

Also questions like: Does the speed of thinking itself speed up, or does more of the field of awareness become more focused with the play, so one thinks with more of the information simultaneously, which seems like speeding up.

This might be sort of like listening to music. If one just listens to the music with no thoughts going on, the music is more beautiful than if one is listening to the music but also thinking about something else.

[Logic_ill]

The ideas above are truly interesting to explore.

I think music also has the capacity to make one imagine or sparks immagination. It´s a form of escapism in the sense that one is not focusing on the immediate environs, but on the one created by our moods and imagination, triggered by music, sports, or some other stimuli that prompts us to slip into a diversity of imaginary scenarios created by ourselves, although prompted by music or other. Memory may have a play on this as well. When one recalls emotions, there is a sort of reconstruction going on, but realtime immagination also plays a heavy role. One is detached from the immediate environs, and recreates or creates scenarios of ones own.

When this happens, one is simply not aware of linear time. It seems not to be important. The stimuli is so gratifying that one not need to focus on every passing minute and every little thing that goes on around us. People often say to live in the now, but I find that my mind is cosntatnly drifting away from it, and thinking about all kinds of events, scenarios, etc. I don´t think it´s healthy to do otherwise...We live in our thoughts.

What I find somewhat intriguing or funny is that the ones that say to live in the now, are more into escapism than myself. Whereas, I think I am more of an observer of my environs, although I too slip into other thoughts than that which is immediately around me...

[AlmsFor-An-Ex-Lepper]

Is there any way to get some comparisons into your points. For example, is there anything which makes time seem to slow down more than at other times, such as something in playing sports that causes more of a slowdown than something else when playing sports? For example, perhaps noticing or not noticing the cheering of the spectators, or looking more towards the ground or towards the sky, or anything else?

The crowd at that time becomes superfluous and just a noise in the background, even if it is for you that they are cheering. What you find yourself focussing on, are the details of what it is you are doing and how best to do it. Adrenalin is the body's natural amphetamine, so yes, your thinking speeds up, which in turn creates the impression of time slowing. Even your physical actions seem to be in slow-motion as an observer of yourself, while the physical awareness and sensation remains the same. It just all adds up to the impression of having more time than usual in performing the same task as you have done many times before, but on this occasion, you have more time.

Also questions like: Does the speed of thinking itself speed up, or does more of the field of awareness become more focused with the play, so one thinks with more of the information simultaneously, which seems like speeding up.

Yes, to all of the above. All due to the adrenalin speeding up the activity in your brain.

This might be sort of like listening to music. If one just listens to the music with no thoughts going on, the music is more beautiful than if one is listening to the music but also thinking about something else.

Well, if you're not distracted, of course you will have greater appreciation of the music as a listener. As a performer however, there too adrenalin can kick in due to the excitement of performing in front of a crowd, and when the crowd is obviously enjoying the performance, this keeps the adrenalin pumping. That's what makes stopping performing so difficult for performers, as everyday common reality doesn't get the juices flowing. Performing can be addictive, due to that adrenalin rush. Do you think The Rolling Stones need the money? Of course not. They continue to perform for the adrenalin rush of the crowd. It's the best drug there is.

[Present awareness]

People often say to live in the now, but I find that my mind is cosntatnly drifting away from it, and thinking about all kinds of events, scenarios, etc.

The statement "live in the now" does not make a lot of sense to me, since "now" is the only place in which one can live. The statement- be aware of "now" seems to make more sense. A person may live in the past or future in their mind perhaps, but not in their body. Their body remains firmly planted where it has always been, in the present moment.

The drifting of mind is the biggest challenge in meditation, when trying to focus attention on a single thought or object.

In sports, the "zone" that an athlete speaks of, is a concentration on the task at hand, to the exclusion of everything else. They are in a thoughtless state of complete presence of mind, reacting to, rather then thinking about the changing situation. The word "flow" is a good way to describe it.