Philosophy Discussion Forums | A Humans-Only Club for Open-Minded Discussion & Debate

[Dukedroklar]

Also, what about the prostitute Jesus was so fond of?

I would be careful calling her a prostitute as many scholars believe that was a label given to her by organized religion to demean her by a male dominated hierarchy which did not want a woman to have any status within the church.

More importantly, look at what you just did. You used her (supposed) sin to devalue Jesus simply because he associated with her. This is human nature and a massive stumbling block.

Example: People follow someone because they see only the part of them that shows the higher self. Then it comes out that behind closed doors they are doing things that many might find offensive (have sex, do drugs whatever). If the followers learn of this they then say "they are wicked and therefore not a beacon of truth" completely disregarding all else. They throw the baby out with the bathwater. What they fail to understand is that what they saw previously was a clothed person and what they now see is his nakedness... the whole person, both light and dark. Wow, epiphany, I am the "Alpha and the Omega"! Light and Dark, life and death, everything that is... is I. (sorry but had to blurt it out hot off the presses)

He had more interest in the lower classes, outcasts and scum of Jewish society than the elites so those were the people he hung around with there.

Word!

Surely god, as a perfect being, should create a logically sound and undeniably true message that cannot be refuted by a rational mind.

Logic is a problem. Not because it is illogical in and of itself but because the lack of knowledge and wisdom that we base our logic on is flawed.

If I give you a calculator with only 1's and 0's with only a + and - sign, how good can the results be? The very fact humans believe they know so much when in fact they are still ignorant of the majority of the universe... is the epitome of arrogance.

Perhaps that's exactly what he did? Though he did "hide it in plain sight" to some extent.

I could've sworn you were one of the atheists here that I had previously debated. Am I confusing you with someone else? They say the memory is the first thing to go and I can't recall what the second thing is, heh heh. Anyways, I agree...

Should we assume that aliens have a fascination with inserting probes into human rectums?

Why the heck not, we seem to like it? Ok sorry, inappropriate joke as my wife is constantly telling me through her laughter

Just to point out that there was no resurrection in the earliest Bibles. That story was added on later (I think it may have been a century later? I can't remember the research exactly now without having to look it up). No-one witnessed the resurrection at the time (to my mind this is because, obviously, it is something impossible and didn't happen). It was a story written into one of the many versions of the Bible at a later date.

For me, the resurrection is a metaphor for spiritual awakening or re-awakening.

So, what was Paul talking about in his letters, that we know were written before the destruction of the Temple around 70AD?

Have you actually seen these letters supposedly written by Paul? Even if you did, would you understand the language they were written in? You are putting your faith in other people, whom claim to have read these letters and interpreted them correctly. That is the problem with books like the bible, which have been edited and changed over the centuries, no one knows for sure, how much was added and how much was thrown out, because it happened to conflict with the story they wanted to sell to the masses.

I've been screaming this from the rooftops for decades and called insane or at best lost. Maybe the wilderness isn't quite as empty as it feels. I would add that regardless of manipulation (intentional or not) I believe there is much truth to be gleaned from it if one can sift through the debris to find the hidden treasure... argggg matey. Dang, where's a pirate emoticon when you need one? xD

[Ruskin]

Argh! The unholy words of Satanic spawned atheism are being inserted into my mouth!

[Geordie Ross]

Also, what about the prostitute Jesus was so fond of?

I would be careful calling her a prostitute as many scholars believe that was a label given to her by organized religion to demean her by a male dominated hierarchy which did not want a woman to have any status within the church.

More importantly, look at what you just did. You used her (supposed) sin to devalue Jesus simply because he associated with her. This is human nature and a massive stumbling block.

Example: People follow someone because they see only the part of them that shows the higher self. Then it comes out that behind closed doors they are doing things that many might find offensive (have sex, do drugs whatever). If the followers learn of this they then say "they are wicked and therefore not a beacon of truth" completely disregarding all else. They throw the baby out with the bathwater. What they fail to understand is that what they saw previously was a clothed person and what they now see is his nakedness... the whole person, both light and dark. Wow, epiphany, I am the "Alpha and the Omega"! Light and Dark, life and death, everything that is... is I. (sorry but had to blurt it out hot off the presses)

He had more interest in the lower classes, outcasts and scum of Jewish society than the elites so those were the people he hung around with there.

Word!

Surely god, as a perfect being, should create a logically sound and undeniably true message that cannot be refuted by a rational mind.

Logic is a problem. Not because it is illogical in and of itself but because the lack of knowledge and wisdom that we base our logic on is flawed.

If I give you a calculator with only 1's and 0's with only a + and - sign, how good can the results be? The very fact humans believe they know so much when in fact they are still ignorant of the majority of the universe... is the epitome of arrogance.

Perhaps that's exactly what he did? Though he did "hide it in plain sight" to some extent.

I could've sworn you were one of the atheists here that I had previously debated. Am I confusing you with someone else? They say the memory is the first thing to go and I can't recall what the second thing is, heh heh. Anyways, I agree...

Should we assume that aliens have a fascination with inserting probes into human rectums?

Why the heck not, we seem to like it? Ok sorry, inappropriate joke as my wife is constantly telling me through her laughter

Just to point out that there was no resurrection in the earliest Bibles. That story was added on later (I think it may have been a century later? I can't remember the research exactly now without having to look it up). No-one witnessed the resurrection at the time (to my mind this is because, obviously, it is something impossible and didn't happen). It was a story written into one of the many versions of the Bible at a later date.

For me, the resurrection is a metaphor for spiritual awakening or re-awakening.

(Nested quote removed.)


Have you actually seen these letters supposedly written by Paul? Even if you did, would you understand the language they were written in? You are putting your faith in other people, whom claim to have read these letters and interpreted them correctly. That is the problem with books like the bible, which have been edited and changed over the centuries, no one knows for sure, how much was added and how much was thrown out, because it happened to conflict with the story they wanted to sell to the masses.

I've been screaming this from the rooftops for decades and called insane or at best lost. Maybe the wilderness isn't quite as empty as it feels. I would add that regardless of manipulation (intentional or not) I believe there is much truth to be gleaned from it if one can sift through the debris to find the hidden treasure... argggg matey. Dang, where's a pirate emoticon when you need one? xD

Just glanced through this post. It appears that you've scrambled the quotes up.

I can't reply in depth. (I get home tomorrow) But regarding your "logic" response. It is beyond logic and soaks through to basic practicality. Word of mouth fails on every level. An omnipotent and omniscient creator of the universe would never choose word of mouth as a method of communication. It descends into Chinese whispers within a single generation. Any self respecting deity that demands belief (under threat of punishment no less) would have seen these gaping pitfalls and avoided them like the plague. Omniscience, omnipotence, omnipresence and omnbenevolence cannot be reconciled with reality.

Ps. Ruskin. Atheists don't believe or accept satan either. But your reply did make me chuckle!

[Ruskin]

Ps. Ruskin. Atheists don't believe or accept satan either. But your reply did make me chuckle!

Metaphorically then as he's technically set himself up as the supreme the deity of the mortal Earth realm, according to some Christian beliefs anyway. Traditionally he's supposed to be pure evil but the medieval Cathar Christians used to pay homage to him in that form as do Yazidi Muslims. It seems Muslims were more tolerant of Devil worship than Catholic Christians as they weren't wiped out.

[Geordie Ross]

Ps. Ruskin. Atheists don't believe or accept satan either. But your reply did make me chuckle!

Metaphorically then as he's technically set himself up as the supreme the deity of the mortal Earth realm, according to some Christian beliefs anyway. Traditionally he's supposed to be pure evil but the medieval Cathar Christians used to pay homage to him in that form as do Yazidi Muslims. It seems Muslims were more tolerant of Devil worship than Catholic Christians as they weren't wiped out.

No, it's mythology. Atheism and satanism are like astrogy and astronomy. They do not link in any way. Other than Christian rhetoric.

Also, if you accept christianty for its documentation, you cannot reject islam. It's documentation is vastly superior in volume and accuracy than its Christian counterpart.

[Wilson]

I find it hilarious when an atheist shows more biblical knowledge than a Christian. Bravo Zengirl! For both the education you provide, and the entertainment.

I'm not a Christian.

What the hell are you, then?

[Ruskin]

No, it's mythology.

Sure it well could be I don't really care too much about that stuff and the name Satan is a figure of speech that means "adversary". That said I though think things like angels probably do exist though I'm open minded as to what exactly is going on with the spirit realms. People do see "beings of light" during certain mystic and near death experiences. I'm having a look at my "Dictionary of angels including fallen angels" which I just got today. There's an angel of fornication apparently.

Taking Satan as a metaphor you could have a read of the Satanic Bible which is your kind of thing.

Atheism and satanism are like astrogy and astronomy.

Well astrology lead to astronomy so there is a connection I guess. But you may like the Anton Laveys Satanic Bible where the only god you have to worship is yourself. That's what atheists already essentially do anyway.

They do not link in any way. Other than Christian rhetoric.

They do when I do it. Get your Satanic Bible read, the things it will reveal to you. You'll find it interesting. I think there's a copy you can read online for free somewhere.

Also, if you accept christianty for its documentation, you cannot reject islam.

Erm...you would have to reject Mohammed as one of the false prophets the Bible warns to be on your guard against who will lead people astray. You see you can't really accept Mohammed as a genuine prophet as a Christian there's no compromise with that. You respect Muslims individually and the aspects of your faith you share though.

It's documentation is vastly superior in volume and accuracy than its Christian counterpart.

Well some people like the idea of 72 (that's a minimum figure) virgins when they die so if sure if that's more for you. Apparently they have their virginity resorted every night as well. This is in Hadiths not the Quran based on what Mohammed himself said.

[enegue]

Atheism and satanism are like astrogy and astronomy. They do not link in any way.

Well, I beg to differ, Geordie.

From the Wikipedia article on LaVeyan Satanism:
"Contrary to popular belief, LaVeyan Satanism does not involve "devil worshiping" or worship of any such deities; it is an atheistic philosophy that uses the character of "Satan" as a symbol of pride, carnality, enlightenment, undefiled wisdom, and of a cosmos which Satanists perceive to be permeated and motivated by a force that has been given many names by humans over the course of time."

Blind Freddy can see the connection between the arguments presented by some, dare I say, many atheists on this forum and "pride, carnality, enlightenment, undefiled wisdom.".

Cheers,
enegue

[Wilson]

I doubt if one in a hundred atheists believes in the devil. Most atheists shun superstition and decide that there is no God on the basis of logic. I don't know any Satanists, but how can they believe in the devil if they don't believe in God as an opposing force?

[Ruskin]

I doubt if one in a hundred atheists believes in the devil. Most atheists shun superstition and decide that there is no God on the basis of logic. I don't know any Satanists, but how can they believe in the devil if they don't believe in God as an opposing force?

Satanism isn't about belief in the Devil though it's about opposing "God" or at least the concept of God seeing as God doesn't really exist it's a pipe dream and wishful thinking, a means of mind control, a hypocrisy a defilement of true human freedom and reason. Satan is symbolic for this adversarial opposition to the Church and spiritual white light belief. Lavey may mention a "dark ordering force of the universe" but I this can just nature itself and not God or a literal Satan.

[Wilson]

Satanism isn't about belief in the Devil though it's about opposing "God" or at least the concept of God seeing as God doesn't really exist it's a pipe dream and wishful thinking, a means of mind control, a hypocrisy a defilement of true human freedom and reason. Satan is symbolic for this adversarial opposition to the Church and spiritual white light belief. Lavey may mention a "dark ordering force of the universe" but I this can just nature itself and not God or a literal Satan.

Satanism isn't about belief in the Devil? Interesting logic. To most of us atheists, Satanism is just as ridiculous as Christianity - maybe even more so. I mean, we do occasionally sacrifice a newborn child and drink its blood, but that's the only similarity.

[Ruskin]

Satanism isn't about belief in the Devil? Interesting logic. To most of us atheists, Satanism is just as ridiculous as Christianity - maybe even more so. I mean, we do occasionally sacrifice a newborn child and drink its blood, but that's the only similarity.

Well if the Biblical Satan actually existed it would mean the Biblical God who is infinitely more powerful than Satan exists as well so that would a problem there. Satanism in it's orthodox form is this kind of bull.




Basically it's just a book of atheistic philosophy but I'd recommend Epicurus if you really intent on your denial of the ultimate reality of all things seen and unseen.

[Dukedroklar]

Satanism isn't about belief in the Devil though it's about opposing "God" or at least the concept of God seeing as God doesn't really exist it's a pipe dream and wishful thinking, a means of mind control, a hypocrisy a defilement of true human freedom and reason. Satan is symbolic for this adversarial opposition to the Church and spiritual white light belief. Lavey may mention a "dark ordering force of the universe" but I this can just nature itself and not God or a literal Satan.

Well put although most fools who are repulsed by religion think that means the religions take on Satan is correct and therefore means evil works must be performed in Satan's name since the church says Satan is evil. Do they not see the circle there and that they are still giving too much power to the church's dogma? In this way the church would be the catalyst (and partially responsible for) the evil acts of those that the church lead (or pushed) astray.

Consider this:

1- if a third of heaven revolted against God they must have understood they were fighting against overwhelming odds.

2- This would indicate that they so firmly believed in their cause that they were willing to fight against those incredibly bad odds.

3- The church claims it was due to their desire to be God and thus rule their lives as the pleased which includes evil acts. I would call BS on that since if what the church calls God was so correct and right then who would not be happy under his plan? It's illogical and does not smack of the truth.

So, do these "faithful" follow God out of love and agreement or is it more true that they simply want to be on the winning side? Can you say cowardice? To cover this fact they will go to extraordinary measures to justify their belief and maintain the blindness of their faith.

If nothing else, Satan would be viewed as the epitome of bravery beyond what most could imagine since if true, he (Satan) knew for a fact God was real and all that entails. I would also like to point out that Satan was Lucifer which means "the morning star, bearer of light". Things that make you go hmmm.

I made a new post titled "The Great Deception" which more thoroughly addresses my theory of "the deception" in the end days (mentioned in the bible which I touched on in my earlier replies to this post. Didn't want to derail this topic...

[Ruskin]

I would also like to point out that Satan was Lucifer which means "the morning star, bearer of light". Things that make you go hmmm.

That was what Satan was before his fall as far as the tradition goes much like Anakin Skywalker is the same person as Darth Vader. Lucifer in the Bible may be referring to a human king of Tyre and not the same being as Satan however. Also the Roman god Phosphoros who was called the "light bearer" so he could have some connection. If you want to get into the occult literature Satan would be the archangel Samael and he first makes his appearance as a fallen angel in the Book of Enoch which is no longer canon but it is very cool.

[Geordie Ross]

Ok I can't take you seriously anymore. You're setting up a absurd false dichotomy in which the choice is religion, or satanism. According to your logic, atheism doesn't exist because you've changed it's definition to satanism. If you oppose the concept of god you're automatically a satanist. Ridiculous.