Philosophy Discussion Forums | A Humans-Only Club for Open-Minded Discussion & Debate

[Newme]

I believe our beliefs are always subjective to some degree, and ideally, we responsibly choose beliefs that are the most healthy and productive, knowing that to some degree, we are wrong, no matter what we believe.

I agree with this idea completely. It has long been my belief that truth is not a destination but a journey. Thus one must always be seeking the truth; you can never fully find it. One problem with Christianity is that Christians believe they have found the truth, which means that they have stopped searching. Ceasing to search for the truth is like ceasing to move while on a moving treadmill; forward progress is the only means of stability. The belief that one has found truth is an illusion, causing one to venerate a truth-claim at the expense of the truth.

I like the analogy of being on a tread mill... it's fitting, because many people suffer when they refuse the constant subconscious call to search for truth (as they would fall on a treadmill if they stopped walking). Still, I also see some goodness in the journey of believing in Jesus as Savior. I do not believe as I did before, but I do see that believing in Jesus was not 100% harmful, but inspired some good also & I respect that in others to an extent.

As you mentioned, "the belief that one has found truth is an illusion" - but that also goes for Atheism or any other group thought that wants to do all the thinking for you. Discovering truth is a life-long process and as we've agreed, we never fully find it... YET... if we allow the knowledge of our ignorance to paralyze us, what good are we for? We must exercise some faith - or trust in what we think, feel and then act on it.

Basically, it comes down to what is functional to believe? What inspires one to do good, even when what is truly good changes with each circumstance and moment? IMO, there are much more serious battles to be fought than the coping method of religion. There are much more dangerous coping methods - like ignorance regarding poverty & other harms, addictions that ruin lives (which arguably is sometimes religiously-oriented). It's about moderation. A study revealed that of 3 groups, 2 did worse in physical healing - those who had NO religious affiliation & those who were VERY involved religiously. The group that did best were those who were moderately involved religiously. Metaphysics, the placebo effect and Jesus teach "as a man thinketh in his heart so is he." Personally, I try to take the good in any book, doctrine, etc.,, and leave the rest.

[Belinda]

Enegue wrote:

OR ...

... those who offer up the sacrifice that Jesus became (the spotless lamb), are demonstrating by doing so that they recognise their contribution to human suffering (sin=behaviour contrary to God's principles of life), that they are sorry they hadn't recognised it sooner (as it would have undone much suffering), and that they want to be included in a kingdom where God dwells, and where Jesus rules according His principles of life, where they will be participants in wiping away all tears, and preventing death and sorrow and pain, and bringing to an end the former things of which such conditions were part.

Entry into that kingdom begins the moment the person's heart has been enlightened to this. It's all so simple, that some people miss it entirely.

That is fine, Enegue, except that if you persist in a literal interpretation while ignoring metaphorical interpretation you will lose people who cannot believe in miracles.

[enegue]

enegue said:
OR ...

... those who offer up the sacrifice that Jesus became (the spotless lamb), are demonstrating by doing so that they recognise their contribution to human suffering (sin=behaviour contrary to God's principles of life), that they are sorry they hadn't recognised it sooner (as it would have undone much suffering), and that they want to be included in a kingdom where God dwells, and where Jesus rules according His principles of life, where they will be participants in wiping away all tears, and preventing death and sorrow and pain, and bringing to an end the former things of which such conditions were part.

Entry into that kingdom begins the moment the person's heart has been enlightened to this. It's all so simple, that some people miss it entirely.

That is fine, Enegue, except that if you persist in a literal interpretation while ignoring metaphorical interpretation you will lose people who cannot believe in miracles.

I don't ignore metaphorical interpretation. Lot's can be learned from looking at things from different perspectives, but it's all so safe, and all so comfortable. It doesn't challenge you to want to have anything about yourself changed in a permanent way. Metaphorical interpretation is the sort of thing that leads to New Year resolutions: a good idea at the time, but after a week or two, you are happy to let them go.

A literal interpretation that says, GOD IS NOT DEAD, is NOT safe and is NOT comfortable. You won't get any peace about your short comings, you won't be content to keep them under wraps for two weeks and then let them have their head for the next fifty. You will discover another source of peace, though, one that is way more satisfying, one that comes from the realisation that, SINCE every act counter to God's principles of life (sin), sets in motion a sequence of events that will bear fruit of discontent, not only in your own life, but in the lives of everyone that your sin touches, THEN your self-restraint WILL BE THEIR SALVATION (from the discontent that you would otherwise have rained down upon them).

If your philosophy doesn't expose your contentedness with safety and comfort, and cause you to want to shake it off for the sake of your children and your children's children, then, yes, you do indeed need a miracle.

Cheers and God bless,
enegue

[Belinda]

Enegue wrote regarding metaphorical interpretation:

It doesn't challenge you to want to have anything about yourself changed in a permanent way. Metaphorical interpretation is the sort of thing that leads to New Year resolutions: a good idea at the time, but after a week or two, you are happy to let them go.

Not true for me even if true for Enegue. I am accustomed to poetry the best of which yields levels of interpretation from the indispensible literal interpretation, e.g . an actual rose, through psychological, sociological and political interpretations. I have increased my thinking and feeling abilities through poetry and I would not want to revert to what I was before I learned and interpreted certain poems. Poems and The Bible, it's all literature; we are not at this juncture discussing The Bible or any poem as an historical or a scientific source, we are discussing uses of metaphor.

The Sick Rose



O Rose, thou art sick!


The invisible worm


That flies in the night,


In the howling storm,




Has found out thy bed


Of crimson joy:


And his dark secret love


Does thy life destroy.




William Blake

[Newme]

Most Christians consider Jesus as human sacrifice scapegoat (though they don’t like anyone pointing that out). They take it all so literally and lose the spirit (symbolic meaning). Though i can understand the personification of Jesus Christ is easier to relate to than an abastract idea of God as Spirit. Still, if you look at the symbol of Jesus having been persecuted and killed for his defense of speaking politically incorrect truths - there are different bits of wisdom that could be derived. Most obviously - defending free speech in being the catalyst for needed improvement - even to death, as others like Socrates did.

I wonder from where the human sacrifice idea came. In a way, Socrates and others who died for a cause they believed in - sacrificed themselves. But to pretend a loving God who had said, “Thou shalt not kill” demands human sacrifice killing in order to appease his supposed demand that humanity be different than how God created them - makes no sense. Based on the Catholic councils - it seems so much was added or edited how they wanted, centuries after the facts. Was it just sick literal thoughts - maybe to somehow make people feel subservient to the Church? Depend on Jesus for your salvation - which the church represents. Or were they using metaphors to teach symbolic truths? If the latter - what’s the meaning? I get the dark night and shadow (ie depression) as the pain in the garden of gethsemane and maybe the cross. But what about sacrificing oneself - maybe giving up (sacrificing) dysfunctional parts... or maybe it represents actual inevitable eventual death - and giving up one’s body.

Personally I don’t like seeing Jesus portrayed as dying on a cross. Yet, some say that the reason Jesus on a cross is so often moving to many is because it represents the pain body in each of us. Jesus - or rather Christ - represents all of the good and suffering humans are capable of. Maybe in that sense - Christ serves as a symbol of compassion for all humanity.

But there’s something more - and deeper that I imagine the symbol of Christ represents. The resurrection is also like being spiritually (& maybe physically) born again, and again... Positive disintegration is rare. There’s too often a temptation to avoid emotional pain. But as with the parable of Christ’s birth, through painful labor, life is brought forth.