Philosophy Discussion Forums | A Humans-Only Club for Open-Minded Discussion & Debate

[Xris]

(Nested quote removed.)



You keep failing to see the obvious. What kind of a nut case would choose to retire in China? China has an appalling human rights record which hasn't improved a great deal over the years. Even today, there are reports of body parts harvesting, millions of political prisoners and draconian laws which are designed to make life a misery. Who in there right mind would choose to live in this country when most sane persons are trying to get out of the place. Well, there's Maurice Strong and there's ummmmmmmmmmm? That's it. Only Maurice Strong is nutty enough to leave the free world of luxury and convience to live in a country that has severe laws that restrict and choke the life out of normal people. Only Maurice Strong would feel at home in such a country, surrounded by corruption and communist dictatorship, he is in his element and feels at home.

Or was he forced into an early retirement due to his involvement in the Oil-for-Food scandal?

No, hes not in North Korea, he was the UN's envoy to North Korea.

Article - Maurice Strong, the Father of America's Destruction

http://www.unitypublishing.com/Governme ... Strong.htm

-- Updated August 29th, 2013, 2:34 am to add the following --


(Nested quote removed.)


Hitler was a national socialist, which is related to communism. Fascism is a term that was used by Westerners to differentiate Hitler from Stalin. Fascism is industry funded dictatorship, while communism is state funded dictatorship. Essentially, there is no difference. They are just two branches of totalitarianism. The word fascism comes from Roman times which describes the rods that were used to punish slaves.

)O so now he is not in north Korea Why should I listen or believe a right wing RC nutter? You are getting desperate when you have to drag up some religious fundamentalist to tell lies and exaggerate the truth. When are you going to produce anything like the scientific proof against climate change? You will not win the argument by trying to associate China with Hitler. Do you actually realise how much per head of population the chinese use of world resources and energy compared with Americans? Even if they doubled their demand it would not even start to compare with energy greedy America..Do some damned research before you make such outrageous claims.

[DarwinX]

According to our experts, the people that go to school, then University, then do post graduate courses, then become doctors and professors, according to these people who have got together and argued for ages, years, they have come to an almost unanimous agreement that we need to stop pumping so much CO2 into the atmosphere, seriously.

It's not about secret pagan communists, whether there actually are any secret pagan communists I don't know, it's about the nerdy ones at school who loved science.

Consensus is not a scientific method of determining anything.

[Aemun]

DarwinX, I seriously respect people that think like you. The world needs it. But this is not the issue. And like I say, you can categorise Hitler as much as you want, ultimately he herded a load of sheep. I don't think you are a sheep.

Don't ever be a sheep.

If the world has global warming then let the world have it. Use your brain for something better. Be one of the survivors. When it comes to the culling, be one of the people doing the culling.

If there's gonna be people shooting stun guns, be one of the ones holding the guns.

Unfortunately, it's game over for what I once hoped for with the human race.

Naa, we ain't surviving this one. Too many tool boxes. (Spit on to the floor). Hope you've got some tins and some guns.

[DarwinX]

[quote="Xris) O so now he is not in north Korea Why should I listen or believe a right wing RC nutter? You are getting desperate when you have to drag up some religious fundamentalist to tell lies and exaggerate the truth. When are you going to produce anything like the scientific proof against climate change? You will not win the argument by trying to associate China with Hitler. Do you actually realise how much per head of population the chinese use of world resources and energy compared with Americans? Even if they doubled their demand it would not even start to compare with energy greedy America..Do some damned research before you make such outrageous claims.[/quote]

1. I never stated that Maurice Strong was in North Korea? - It must be part of your fanaticism that you are starting to hallucinate and see things that aren't there. 2. I never made any statements about energy consumption? 3. You keep trying to change the subject when you have been backed into a corner. But there is no escaping the facts, China is a corrupt country which is the climate change model society for the IPCC. That's why Maurice Strong is living in China. He's waiting for the Western countries to collapse due to the carbon taxes, so that China can take over and control all the world's economy using its brutal communist ideologies.

[Leonodas]

(Nested quote removed.)


This gives the impression that there has been some major U-turn in scientific opinion since the 1970s. It isn't so.

The Wicki article on 'Global Cooling' gives a more balanced picture. As ever, although you may not trust Wicki you can follow up the references it quotes.

Well then.

I will let time tell and leave the scientists to do their work. If that science is corrupt, then surely many more are also corrupt, and humanity is doomed anyway. If it's not, then it's moot and climate change denial is tantamount to belief in a flat earth.

I do hate how it's been politicized, but that's hardly exclusively a right-wing left-wing problem as many people say. People have twisted the facts regardless of where you stand politically, and as such I think this is one of those things that the public as well as legislators should really just...stay out of.

It's hard for me because I was brought up believing that global warming/climate change was a sham, and (stubborn as I am) I don't really want to just give up on that idea. But like I said, leave it to the scientists to debate over and study further. When the evidence is ready, let it be presented as one whole (not in bits and pieces) in a single national debate. I don't believe that any ideology has anything to do with lobbying or funding (although funding could certainly be pushed in the direction of a certain agenda), be it conservative or liberal politics -- both sides jumped on the issue and made it political.

Lol I really shouldn't be commenting here as I am adding nothing productive to the conversation, but I urge all of you to remain skeptical -- not outright accept or deny. Straight happenings are at work in this day and age; nothing is ever completely true anymore.

[Logicus]

I will lay it out so you can all understand it.

I don't care if global warming is real or not. And temperatures have been rising since the close of the last ice age.
I don't care if the polar ice cap melts. It should be great for new shipping routes.
I don't care if CO2 is rising. The plants will love it. You can't get any "greener" than that.
When the ice covering Antarctica finally melts, it will open up a whole new continent. Another New World: I can't wait.

If none of this happens, I'm alright with that, too.

The lot of you are doing exactly what the "climate scientists" want you to do: You are keeping the whole idea alive and promoting it whenever you can. Those grant dollars just keep rolling in. They know nothing will ever be done because of their work. They aren't stupid. They are perfectly willing to remain as highly paid advisors throughout the duration of the "crisis".

Meanwhile, the Earth rolls on oblivious to headlines and theories, and will, in the end, survive. As will the life upon it.

[Aemun]

It's fantastic the differing opinions that exist out there.

Logicus, your argument is you don't care. Ha, yes there will be new shipping routes. We will need these for the massive emigration that will be going on from countries that are no longer above water. I guess maybe you'll be one of the priveleged ones. How you seem to know Earth will survive, I do not know. Because the scientists certainly don't claim to know. We certainly know that we are wiping species out but the whole thing is unprecedented. Your way is an alien way of looking at things to me because I was brought up to have responsibility for my actions and you just say 'I don't care if everyone dies because of something I did.'

Probably my only objection with you, as with every single person on the wrong side of the debate is that you seem unable to form a coherent opinion.

Leonodas, I think you have suffered from a lot of misinformation as a child. If you can trust anyone whatsoever, and I sincerely mean this, if you have to get information from anywhere, then I would like to make the suggestion that you email your local University science department.

Try it. You have a very very very strong chance that they will tell you that the evidence is abundant and scientific consensus has been reached. And it is happening and we are causing it.

My personal view is that humanity is so dumb that we will not prevent it. I don't see it happening myself.

May our fossilized remains be of interest to something.

And when it happens, I just want to say to all the people who willingly let it happen a big - **** you - I want my children to inherit an Earth. My children will have to feed off the scraps we leave behind.

I suppose it's a bit like watching a relative kill themselves from drugs overdose, very upsetting and annoying at the same time.

If there is a heaven, I don't believe the people on the wrong side of the debate will be getting in because I think God will say 'I gave you an Earth and you broke it, I'm not letting you in my house.'

I think that would only be fair. If someone burns their house down. they sure as **** ain't getting in mine. I like to be able to sleep at night.

And this is what this debate comes down to. How do climate deniers sleep at night?

-- Updated August 29th, 2013, 2:24 am to add the following --

Probably holding a gun in one hand whilst sucking their thumb with the other.

-- Updated August 29th, 2013, 2:41 am to add the following --

I think that throughout history, at least since Jesus's day, people have been worried about End times.

It is amazing that Christianity is used as an excuse to bring about End times.

Jesus wanted to stop people doing what they were doing.

They took his words, His Voice and used it to destroy Man.

Money, money, money.

He tipped over tables in the Temple. They crucified him for it.

Then they took those that believed in him and they slowly bought them out.

Evil is a clever thing. A slow thinker. Give them a few luxuries, a taste of the good stuff, and they will always be coming back for more.

Until it wraps itself around their neck and it chokes them.

[Londoner]

Hitler was a national socialist, which is related to communism. Fascism is a term that was used by Westerners to differentiate Hitler from Stalin. Fascism is industry funded dictatorship, while communism is state funded dictatorship. Essentially, there is no difference. They are just two branches of totalitarianism.

You have identified one similarity between communist and fascist regimes; this makes you think they must be identical.

Similarly, you see that some political groups you don't like are also concerned about Climate Change, therefore you think Climate Change must be their political plot.

It is the same thought process which sees a Jew doing something you don't like and concludes all Jews are plotting against you.

It is an obsession with a single idea, in such a way that you become deaf to all others.

It is the fundamental failure of reasoning that drives all paranoid conspiracy theorists.

[Aemun]

I think when a company gets so rich that they can buy politicians and the media, as well as land, when they become so rich they can make people distrust science facts through brainwashing,then some people may see that as a slippery form of totalitarianism.

Controlling bodies is one thing, but controlling minds is much harder.

George Orwell, 1984. Read it.

Unfortunately the ideological base of the U.S.A is totally going stir crazy right right now.

I don't deny Britain is also bad.

When it comes to business the yanks are usually ahead of tricks. It's ok to make money but I think one needs to retain morality. Some sort of ethical idea.

I'd imagine whatever ethical considerations you make, other humans should be on the agenda somewhere. Our best scientific minds say that we are causing a situation where billions of people could die as a result, whatever your views on homocide, genocide should probably constitute a worse crime.

[Londoner]

Logicus I don't care if global warming is real or not. And temperatures have been rising since the close of the last ice age.

That isn't right. We had a string of ice ages which accompanied a general cooling trend. Obviously there was a rise as the most recent ice age ended, but then temperatures remained stable for 10 thousand years or so. Now they are rising.

I don't care if the polar ice cap melts. It should be great for new shipping routes.

First, the mass of ice that is melting fast isn't on the sea. If the mass of ice on Greenland melts then it will create new shipping routes in places we don't want them, e.g. over where a lot of us live!

The loss of ice cover (which is reflective) will also accelerate warming. Remember, the curent gentle background warming caused by our release of CO2 isn't the big problem. What is worrying is that this warming will set off a cascade of other effects, like melting the polar ice, or releasing methane as the permafrost swamps melt - it is these 'natural' sources of greenhouse gases that will do the big damage.

I don't care if CO2 is rising. The plants will love it. You can't get any "greener" than that.

Plants would only 'love it' if a shortage of CO2 was currently restricting their growth. But vegetation is adjusted to the way things are now; if we change that, then it might benefit new species, but humans and animals have evolved to live off the current assortment.

When the ice covering Antarctica finally melts, it will open up a whole new continent. Another New World: I can't wait.

But the new continent won't have any soil etc., while we will lose the use of a lot of the continents we already have.

I think what you miss is that humans have an awful lot invested in the way things are now; if there are changes in things like sea level or local weather, any adjustment is going to be enormously expensive. And it isn't as if fossil fuels are going to last forever anyway.

[Aemun]

Follow the money, type in to the keyboard in front of you 'largest industries in world' or 'richest companies in world'.

Ok, done that.

Now think, why are these companies paying think tanks millions and millions to come up with as many ways of saying 'it's not happening' as possible.

Why would you pay a company to say it's not happening on the one hand and a UNIVERSITY to try to come up with ways of stopping it happening on the other?

Why would BP do that?

So the think tanks who make money out of saying 'it's a scam' don't strike you as hypocritical. They're paid to convince people to distrust science. It's a pure scam.

Scam, scam, scam.

Who do you really think have the most sway, some emerging markets investment companies or the oil companies? Look there will definitely be a profit margin in alternative energy , but if you think that's got any clout whatsoever compared to the oil giants, then you are sincerely misinformed.

We have a programme in Britain where people have business ideas and try to sell them to a group of investors. I wonder what response they'd get if someone went in with anthropogenic climate change.

A scam to make money, what a joke. Why would you spend seven years of your life learning how to pretend to do science? Have you ever met any students? The majority of ones that do science that I have met, do it because they like science and they think it is our best method of working stuff out.

If you just want to make money try Law or Accountancy. I'm sure if you can do a science postgrad then you could do a Law one.

And it's the scale of the whole thing. More or less every university in the world is on board. And I've never met a proper scientist who disagrees with anthropogenic climate change. And there is literally absolutely no evidence that it is a scam - none.

How is it even viable as a scam?

-- Updated August 29th, 2013, 4:30 am to add the following --

There are some people on here who genuinely seem to have a middle ground viewpoint - maybe it is maybe it isn't but someone else can deal with it.

Then there are those that refuse to accept they are wrong, after being shown that they are wrong time and time again. This isn't even a close battle.

We have shown the deniers to be liars and ideological nut cases.

I will repeat that 97% of scientists working in and around the field of global ecology, believe humans are causing the world to get hot through CO2 emissions. They say we are causing sea levels to rise and desertification.

It is not pretty, it's more like scary.

-- Updated August 29th, 2013, 6:49 am to add the following --

What perplexes me about the whole debacle is that they try to suggest that an emerging market would some how be bad for the economy. Surely a stagnant market is a bad thing.

You'd think that the only people who would lose money would be those investing in oil.

This is a key flaw in hyper-conservativism.

We have a seemingly different general attitude in Britain where there is a general distrust of the rich amongst the majority. America seems to revere its wealthy a bit more. I think this is why they think we are communists.

Free-market economy is a scam.

Capitalism is good at supply and demand but tends to mess up in other areas, I would not like to be brought up in the American system because there's too much poverty for such a wealthy country - far too much.

Our politicians try to copy the Americans but I think this country would be taking a massive step backwards in evolution if our healthcare system was privatised. I think when that happens it is time to move to Canada.

[Xris]

[quote="Xris) O so now he is not in north Korea Why should I listen or believe a right wing RC nutter? You are getting desperate when you have to drag up some religious fundamentalist to tell lies and exaggerate the truth. When are you going to produce anything like the scientific proof against climate change? You will not win the argument by trying to associate China with Hitler. Do you actually realise how much per head of population the chinese use of world resources and energy compared with Americans? Even if they doubled their demand it would not even start to compare with energy greedy America..Do some damned research before you make such outrageous claims.

1. I never stated that Maurice Strong was in North Korea? - It must be part of your fanaticism that you are starting to hallucinate and see things that aren't there. 2. I never made any statements about energy consumption? 3. You keep trying to change the subject when you have been backed into a corner. But there is no escaping the facts, China is a corrupt country which is the climate change model society for the IPCC. That's why Maurice Strong is living in China. He's waiting for the Western countries to collapse due to the carbon taxes, so that China can take over and control all the world's economy using its brutal communist ideologies.[/quote]
But if you read your own propaganda it claimed he was in north korea. What corner am I in exactly? You have simply repeatedly given us links to nutters or right wing deniers. You are not contributing any independent scientific evidence to support your claim that climate change is fraud. The idea that there is no rise in global temperature is simply not true.Every scientific study has indicated as much.The arctic ice is melting, sea temperatures have risen.Give me one scientific study that questions these facts?

[Aemun]

I have started to believe that DarwinX is simply getting paid to spread disinformation.

Go to as many forums daily as possible and spread lies is the name of the game.

Maybe he/she works for one of these conservative American think tanks we've been finding out about.

I just struggle to believe anyone could be so adamant about things that are so easily disproved.

I hope that anyone who reads this thread will now be utterly convinced about the scale of the problem man is facing when it comes to counteracting the threat of CO2 emissions.

-- Updated August 29th, 2013, 8:40 am to add the following --

I've learnt alot since I came here.

I've learnt that the public opinion has been massively distorted by the media.

All I ever read or heard about as a child was environmental issues. Then I went to university and learnt how to research topics. Nothing I learnt changed my opinion.

Every year they bring out new research that proves the hypothesis. The greenhouse effect is happening baby, oh yeah you better believe it and I would seriously consider where you choose to buy property if you want to make a family home. The sea levels are rising and people are gonna want somewhere else to live. Perhaps that would be manageable if we didn't keep create billions more humans.

Then we have the food supply to worry about. It's gonna get tough.

If the climate change issue was simply ignored, well that would be one thing. But to say it doesn't exist, that takes man to a higher level of stupidity than I could ever have imagined.

[Xris]

I have started to believe that DarwinX is simply getting paid to spread disinformation.

Go to as many forums daily as possible and spread lies is the name of the game.

Maybe he/she works for one of these conservative American think tanks we've been finding out about.

I just struggle to believe anyone could be so adamant about things that are so easily disproved.

I hope that anyone who reads this thread will now be utterly convinced about the scale of the problem man is facing when it comes to counteracting the threat of CO2 emissions.

The tea baggers are probably paying for this kind of misinformation.They ain't getting much for their money.You have to totally blinkered to believe that 99% of the scientific establishment, who are expert in this field, are somehow lying or in the pay of China.

[Aemun]

'And it isn't as if fossil fuels are going to last forever anyway.'

This is a great point.

What will happen most likely is that the solution to global warming will involve polymer technology. So the oil companies will make super profits as oil becomes not only useful but also essential to our continued existence.

I don't think the oil companies are stupid, they know where this is heading.

My problem is that we may get wiped out.