Philosophy Discussion Forums | A Humans-Only Club for Open-Minded Discussion & Debate

[Belinda]

Whitedragon, regarding the Potter's pot, not all weeds fall away from where they are lodged. I like the story of the Potter however I do find it over-optimistic regarding the ultimate goodness of happenstance. I think that the Potter's wife was right to make the best of circumstances, but obviously her knowledge of useful herbs came from reason and not from acceptance.

While pornography is beneficial as well as detrimental we should try to sort which is which, and legislate accordingly, with due regard for individual freedoms. Beneficial and detrimental are decided by people using certain criteria. The criterion of frankness is described symbolically as the broken pot made whole, and I agree that lack of moral courage and incisiveness is often deplorable and can deaden a companionate marriage.I am not sure what this fact has to do with sorting through the rights and wrongs of pornography.

My last sentence implies that pornography is art, and that for our own safety and advancement we need to define and evaluate works of art and separate them from mere art for the sake of selfish or financial profit.

MetroGoldwynMeyer's famous motto is hahahaha as far as MGM is concerned

[Whitedragon]

THANK YOU Naughtorious! I agree, and am glad someone sees clearly.

-- Updated December 15th, 2012, 5:08 am to add the following --

Thanks Belinda

I agree with allot of what you're saying. The weeds' function and meaning I leave to the reader, but to me weeds are misunderstood people in bad situations. But you can't say I'm going to "live in a crack" in other words; you make bad ethical choices and make a life style out of them. I like the way Naughtorious put it; it's exactly how I feel.

[Logic_ill]

Belinda is very wise. I don't regard pornography art, although some will argue it is, however pornography does have its place. Best thing is to decide what to label it for the sake of legislation.

[Fleetfootphil]

Logic_ill: Exactly right. If you take an art class and make garbage, it is garbage.

[Whitedragon]

Okay, I didn't want to say this; but I met some porn stars and people who work in that area, and none of them are happy … I have met hundreds. Isn't THAT what it's all about? The state of our joy, ego, and sanity? That's why I say art is irrelevant. One of the girls I met got cancer in her ovaries, because she was a prostitute; I found nothing but misery among all women I interviewed. Granted, some of them I slept with … there I said it … and you know … it almost destroyed me. Let's face it, some porn and sex acts are just destructive, whether they're art or not. But then I met Jesus, and he changed my life; I rue the day of my weaknesses; and all the women I talked to about it do too, whether they posed as porn stars or were working the streets. They all cried when I talked to them about it … art … I don't think so … just sin. But the women who posed nude for real art; they were always happy … well most of them; because their bodies convey a message. That's why I dare call myself “WhiteDragon,” because I lost a lot while I was making the wrong decisions; now I have everything, because I believe in Christ. The only nudity you'll find on my computer is religious art, with religious connotations; and every picture means something to me. My life is so different since I chose to stop doing what is wrong … I have a godly joy … which was what I was trying to explain. And let me tell you loving someone can never replaced by any porn. I met a girl and I lost her; but she lives on in my heart; after five years I still love her. The battle is difficult my friends, but doing what is right is very, very, very rewarding.

Someone asked me earlier “am I getting any” … No, I lost my beloved, and I can't move on … but when I think of her; it's like we're still together; I won't defile her memory with the lusts of this world. Now laugh at me when I say this, but being with God is better than being with any women; and if you can find a women who believes too; … well that's why I can't move on … I saw the universe in my girlfriend's eyes; I saw the Spirit in her eyes, impaling me like spears, that goes beyond art. I was the richest man when she lived, now I'm sad, but still much more richer … she led me to Christ. And then I asked myself one day … what if my beloved was a porn star or a prostitute … and I never touched that kind of porn again. Those of you who know real love, will understand this wisdom.

We see porn as stimulating, but I once wrote a different poem, and didn't even have this in mind: Think of a flower and a women: “I bring forth colours pleasant to peer, / but dyed with too a sad story to hear.” The people making porn, are bitterly seldom happy doing it; it's unethical. I told you all a lot about myself just now; I hope my testimony will not be in vain. Hate me, love me; judge me, admire me … but please try and open your hearts, before you get hurt like me too.

[Logic_ill]

Logic_ill: Exactly right. If you take an art class and make garbage, it is garbage.

But, Fleetfootphil, for the purposes of legislation one must define terms. If you are simply going to judge someone's "creation" on an individual basis, then you can call it whatever you want, even though it will affect communication. If you are going to regulate an activity, then you must label it and define it.

One must also assign labels for linguistic purposes. Your "mere opinion" is not the only valid criteria in determining what is going to be categorized as ART. There must be a consensus about what art is (a general definition).

You are focusing on your particular response to art. I am focusing on its definition to attain a general consensus of what should be considered art, and what should not be considered art. I may not achieve a complete consensus, but a majority consensus is my aim, or should be the legislators and linguist's aim.

[Fleetfootphil]

Logic_ill: Gosh, what do you propose to legislate? My response to art is the one that is valid for me. Consensus doesn't add up to correctness. Do you feel you need to be in control of what others think or maybe that you can legislate what it's okay for others to think? Yikes.

[Whitedragon]

Fleetfoot,

I'm crying as I'm writing this post, and I know I'll be upset for many weeks to come.

My girlfriend and I were engaged. We were doing a course in narrative therapy together. One day she just broke off the engagement … she found out about my past mistakes. The only way she could have found out is through the psychologist, whom were presenting the course. I tried talking to her for weeks, but she didn't answer her phone. Then her sister contacted me with that news … she got mugged … she was shot. …... I didn't even get a chance to say good bye ….... I never got a chance to say I'm sorry. This is an expensive post, and I guess it will fall for many on deaf ears. I was involved in some bad porn and prostitution, (read my previous post). I lost someone I love, she died believing I was a horrible man. I wish someone told me what to think and how to think more often; so by all means, think and believe and do what you want; just remember all your beliefs crumble when reality reaps a loved one. I never confronted that psychologist … what's the point; I can only hate myself. My self hate is still with me, but knowing Christ made it easier and gave my life new purpose.

[Logic_ill]

Logic_ill: Gosh, what do you propose to legislate? My response to art is the one that is valid for me. Consensus doesn't add up to correctness. Do you feel you need to be in control of what others think or maybe that you can legislate what it's okay for others to think? Yikes.

No, I am not a legislator, but I feel for the linguist. However, I'm just trying to put myself into a legislator's and linguist's shoes because these are "problems" they would have to directly deal with. These people are the ones who will ultimaltely decide what category each of these activities fall into, and the general public's access to "art" or "pornography".

I was just commenting on your focus. I have my own ideas about art, as well. However, I do sometimes feel the "need" to influence regulation on matters such as pornography because I see a direct relation between legislation and the public's general access to such material...

People have all kinds of personal views and they are "allowed" to have them in some societies, but the laws that rule/regulate certain activities can override those "personal tastes" or those of the individual.

[Fleetfootphil]

Logic_ill and Whitedragon: [...] There ain't nothing wrong with my focus. Lingusists have little to do with what art or pornography are. Legislation is restrictive based on the views of them what got the clout to shove crap up others' orifices. The mugging story, if true (yet unbelievable), is sad, but sadness comes and goes. We get it, we get rid of it. How's about a beer to drown it in? I saw Jesus once but was afraid it was Satan in disguise trying to fool me (and he is a master) so I decided to use my mind rather than bite the burger in the fire and I ran away. Never been sorry. No one can put himself in others' shoes- that sort of explanation is a cop out. Ii really means "meddle in others' affairs."

[Logic_ill]

Ok, Fleetfootphil. You managed to make me laugh. Nope, ain't nuthin' wrong with y'ur focus...

[Misty]

Fleetfoot,

I'm crying as I'm writing this post, and I know I'll be upset for many weeks to come.

My girlfriend and I were engaged. We were doing a course in narrative therapy together. One day she just broke off the engagement … she found out about my past mistakes. The only way she could have found out is through the psychologist, whom were presenting the course. I tried talking to her for weeks, but she didn't answer her phone. Then her sister contacted me with that news … she got mugged … she was shot. …... I didn't even get a chance to say good bye ….... I never got a chance to say I'm sorry. This is an expensive post, and I guess it will fall for many on deaf ears. I was involved in some bad porn and prostitution, (read my previous post). I lost someone I love, she died believing I was a horrible man. I wish someone told me what to think and how to think more often; so by all means, think and believe and do what you want; just remember all your beliefs crumble when reality reaps a loved one. I never confronted that psychologist … what's the point; I can only hate myself. My self hate is still with me, but knowing Christ made it easier and gave my life new purpose.

Hello Whitedragon,

Give yourself a break. You do not know what your girlfriend was "thinking." You are assuming what she was thinking. Maybe she was gathering needed energy from her God and was going to get back to you in a positive way. Stop beating yourself to a pulp. Give her the benefit of the doubt of being a good believer, forgiving.

[Whitedragon]

Thank you for the kind words Misty; it means a lot to me. However I would have liked to explain myself and make things right with her before she passed.

Naughtorios; I didn't make a mistake on the forum; I'd do it all over exactly the same way again. There is power in testimony; I see no one else here telling their life story; many people in this life hide behind clever words; I could do that too, instead I chose to open up to the people here. Perhaps I did it to aggressively, but that's only because I got emotional.

The communion I have with God is like flying through space; it is like being out of phase with time. It has empowered me to get through my bipolar and inspired me to write a lot of poetry. I am not weak, and neither is my God. You and I agreed at one point about these things; or at least I agreed with you, Naughtorious … what happened? I agreed with one of your posts, remember?

Naughtorios, we are talking about, is art porn here. What we're not seeing however is how these things, no matter how soft core, or had core can ruin your life, like it did mine. Art is an excuse, people hide behind when talking about porn. Did you read my blog where I spoke about how I interviewed the girls who stripped, prostituted, and posed? They all hate their lives and their jobs. That is what matters, what this stuff does to people, not whether it is art.

[Misty]

Thank you for the kind words Misty; it means a lot to me. However I would have liked to explain myself and make things right with her before she passed.
(Nested quote removed.)

When one passes, no matter the last contact, one always wants to communicate more. The idea behind that is it keeps the loved one here, which of course is not the way life/death is. So, there is no need to make things right with her, and if she is in heaven now - she knows - so things are right between you. She would want you to move on and find love again - for this life is still yours. For you to stay in love with her and not to love again defeats love. To love again and be loved would honor her.

[Naughtorious]

I agreed with one of your posts, remember?

We came to an agreement on whether pornography was an art or not. However. I am a non-theist who prefers practical understanding for a practical world rather than magical and personal understanding for a practical world.

They all hate their lives and their jobs. That is what matters, what this stuff does to people, not whether it is art.

If they hate their lives. Why are they doing it? No matter what. This doesn't break down to pornography. This breaks all the way down to our economically bankrupt society. People hate their jobs in general.