Philosophy Discussion Forums | A Humans-Only Club for Open-Minded Discussion & Debate

[Whitedragon]

Folly, folly, folly...

Me thinkst art is a the fool's decoy here.

I once heard a learned man say, “Every evil has its remedy, except folly. To reprimand an obstinate fool or to preach to a dolt is like writing upon the water. Christ healed the blind, the halt, the palsied, and the leprous. But the fool He could not cure.” WM-ST-56 (Kahlil Gibran)

[Fleetfootphil]

is reading Tarot cards art?

-- Updated December 13th, 2012, 3:07 pm to add the following --

are they evil, the first step on the slippery slope to depravity and damnation?

[Supine]

I'm getting the impression here that I'm being quoted out of contexts. I thought I made it clear that some forms of nudity is uplifting. I didn't say all nudity or even porn leads to STD's and AIDS...

I know, WD, I was just attempting a little humor with a question. Apparently my attempt at humor failed.

-- Updated December 13th, 2012, 3:19 pm to add the following --

Emmanuel Goldstein has not made it clear to me what he wants. A definition of pornography? A definition of art ?

Definitions of both seem to be elusive or at best... controversial. Don't you agree, Belinda?

Apparently there are some religious folks that regard that photograph of Mia Maestro as pornographic or at minimum... near pornographic, but I don't view it as either. I'll cede that given males being very visual creatures when it comes to sexual arousal, that photograph, and the chosen garment of Mia, can an likely will "inspire" a minute or greater sensual arousal in a boy or man. But I'm not sure I'd considered that the only criteria for porn.

[Logic_ill]

As someone mentioned before me, art is about intention. I think that most pornography is not intentionally artistic, but has other purposes in mind (provoking sexual arousal). Of course, there is no way of telling the actual intentions of the "artists", but I'm guessing it's nothing other.

Pornography's effects seem to be equally "non-artistic", since most people respond to it as generally expected: becoming excited and perhaps searching for some relief.

However, pornography can unintentionally spark the imagination of the viewers, along with the sexual arousal, but that is entirely the viewer's doing, and it is usually with the same purpose: provoking sexual arousal.

[Fleetfootphil]

I don't think art is about intention. If it were, every untalented hack who is a genuine wanna-be would be out there making, doing and being considered an excellent artist. That doesn't happen.

[Logic_ill]

I don't think art is about intention. If it were, every untalented hack who is a genuine wanna-be would be out there making, doing and being considered an excellent artist. That doesn't happen.

No, not all artists who are "untalented" would be considered excellent artists, but their work would fall under the category of art. If a person's intention is to create something that would inspire another's refelection, whether it be on its beauty, form, ideas expressed, symbolism, suggestions, etc. then it would fall into the category of art.

[Whitedragon]

As a matter of fact I don't READ tarot cards anymore; it's something I really loved, which I had to give up. I had to make the sacrifice … long story. But I still talk about the logic of the cards; I don't think its quite the same. Working with them is to acknowledge the gods, they are tied to, but using their logic is to acknowledge some of the math and lore, which is, I believe of universal interest. It is like doing Karate, without praying to any Eastern gods.

I really do think art is being thrown around here to casually. As I said in my previous post it is distracting us all like fools. Art is not the issue here. Perhaps we all should stop talking about art; we're using her like a human shield and decoy. We're not getting to the real point; which I've been making over and over, to the point of frustration.

I say nudity and porn is right; as long as it doesn't fall into the hands of minors, (I mean really young children), and as long as the people involved are not endangered in any way. That is the real issue, not whether porn is art. Now I know we can debate who can handle what, but the question is will we notice in time what certain porn does to our psyche and health? Especially if it is the ruling factor in our life.

I really don't have problems with nudity and sex; we read about it in the bible, (Songs of Solomon). But here it is between two lovers. I am not insensitive to peoples' situations and needs, but as a fellow consumer I had to throttle myself, not just for religious reason, but also because I don't want porn to lopsidedly define me as a person.

A question for those out there, who still are religious … is over indulgence in porn, (whether it's art or not), a form of idol worshiping? If sex becomes your god, (which it so easily can), are we not worshiping other gods and also our own desires? This is not just true for sex and nudity, but for all other things.

I had to sacrifice a hell of a lot of things in my life, which really hurt me in the beginning; I did it because it was right, I did because I love God, but most of all, I did it because I love myself. I didn't do it because I was afraid to go to hell; I did it because I was afraid if I didn't I would lose the little bit of Heaven on this earth. And after I sacrificed all these things, God empowered me; I am happy and fulfilled, not lacking a single thing. I feel like a god. You see we are all gods, John 10:34-36, (Jesus' own words). But there is a condition; the Word of God, must have come to you before it can come to its full meaning.

That's why I can say some nudity and sex is Beautiful, or pleasing or what ever you wish to call it. Sex doesn't rule me; I rule sex. Sex is meant to make people happy and to empower them; but we're either told all forms are right or all forms are wrong; that is why we shiver in sickness and confusion. Jesus, didn't had the adulteress women stoned; he stood up for her, but he also knew that there is a better way, and that way is for sex to be in its place.

So the question is is sex your god; or are you the god, and sex, and nudity and all its arts are just companions. The only way you can be a god is if the kingdom of heaven is in your blood; it's close enough to reach out and touch. you don't have to wait until judgment day to be empowered, my friends. When does sex become your god? Well there is a funny story, they say Behind every successful man there is a woman; and behind every unsuccessful man there is two. There has to be something in your life, which is more important than nudity and sex; something, which drives you to love other people and yourself; it is not a question of whether sex is present or not; it is a question of how many great things are present in the thrown room and who is the king.

Sex is a great thing, but it is not the king in my thrown room. It once was my king, and it ruled everything I did; it was a bad king, and I lost a lot of good things and people. Now I am the king, and God is the Emperor. And there is balance and peace in all the land. Sex and nudity is still present, it is like wings, it is like a royal counselor, it is like a sword, it is like the sea, it is like the jewels in my crown. It could only become valuable to me when I was in control; it is a lot of things, but it is not my scepter; it doesn't ware the crown.

[Belinda]

I don't WANT to make a definition. Everyone has to make their own definition and come up with their own views. I am just HINTING at how I view it and then everyone is free to agree or disagree with it

But the discussion 'does pornography qualify as art?' has moved beyond hints and impressions, and we are trying to come to individual decisions or, alternatively,consensus. We ultimately are the people who are responsible for legislature.I include polemics as legitimate contributions to the debate, because they can always be shot down. But let us have proper polemics if so.

My criticism continues beyond this particular discussion and relates to why we are doing philosophy . Is it to pass the time in entertainment, or is it to help us to make practical decisions? I opt for the latter.

[Whitedragon]

Okay, I wrote a poem a few years ago about this subject; with all this talk I expanded into a story a few days ago. In it I try to explain ethics and the tolerance of ethics. I sincerely hope, it will mean as much to you as it did to me. I didn't want to share it on a forum, but I also don't want it to go to wast. In it you'll find I advocate as much for circumstance as for abuse of circumstance. I hope you enjoy it.




One day a man came to the Dragon Oracle and asked: “Sir, tell me about the brokenness of the world.” And The dragon said: “Two worlds have to be broken of two different things or people for brokenness to be just, else the one will never understand the other one... Listen to this parable.”

There was a master potter, who was working on two clay pots. When evening came he was finished and retired for the night; but while he was sleeping an enemy came and broke the two masterpieces. The enemy said to himself, “I will not leave all the shards of the two clay pots behind, else this master repairs them and shames me; I will leave just enough to drive him mad.” When the master potter woke and saw the damage, he was grief stricken and wept bitterly. But he didn't give up, he took the shards, which the plunderer left behind and combined the two pots together. He loved that new pot so much, and wanted a special purpose for it; so he watered his garden each day with it. But there were holes in this new combined pot. In the beginning he tried to put his finger in these holes, but they cut him badly. But the potter didn't get angry with the pot, because he knew it was broken. He stopped putting his fingers in the holes and after a while he saw weeds springing up. He realized that this is the route where the pot was leaking; so he started pulling out the weeds. However one day when he was pulling out the weeds, the weeds asked him, “why are you pulling us out? No one has ever given us water before, but the injury of your pot had mercy on us.” The potter's wife came and said, “my husband: some weeds are herbs, let me pluck these and see what they are.” They put the herbs in their food, and suddenly they had compassion and understanding for evil men. And the potter said to his wife, “It's good to put one's laws and judgments away, even if it's just for a day. I never could understand the sinner, until my pot cut me and I ate the weeds. I also didn't know that some weeds are herbs; their suffering is the herb for my sickness, I was ill with pious judgment.” From now on the potter walked slowly, while he was watering his garden, and on some days you can find him standing still.

But one day when the potter wanted to water his garden again, he found that some weeds have made their homes in the cracks of the pot. He wanted to pull them out, but his wife said, “leave them, your pot is whole again.” However now the other weeds weren't getting anymore water and the garden plants were getting too much. The potter didn't know what to do; but behold the cracks eventually cut off their stems and they withered away... You can't live in a crack. And where those weeds fell from the pot, the lizards ate them up.

There were some other pots in the potter's place, whom were whole; they never liked the new pot, because they couldn't understand the cracks. The whole pots loved each other, but they could never love each other completely, because they were apart from one another; the new pot, however, was sacred, because their joys and sorrows were sliced into each other like a jigsaw, and they are one to the bone. Lets take an example...

That's why a man and a woman can't understand each other before they both have been broken, have lost a few pieces; and admit they must slice themselves into each other. If this does not happen a man and a woman will only exchange pleasantries, and their marriage will be dead. So many are afraid to break, so many are afraid to share their broken pieces as it is cutting them on the inside. What is best? To be tortured inside, having many secrets; or to exchange torture, AND joy; only so will you become completely one and free, and you won't have to seek freedom and understanding in dark places.

Right and wrong is a cracked clay pot, Leaking water neither yours, nor mine: Water over which you and I cast lot. Its shabby shards precariously combine, Over which saints, harlots and fools do pine.

[Logic_ill]

Oh, just wanted to add to my earlier reply...

Art may include provoking or inspiring this reflection on form, beauty, symbolism, suggestions, etc. on the artist him/herself.

[Whitedragon]

Yes, ethics is a difficult topic my friends and it all comes back to the Genesis story...

Forbidden apple on the tree, / You had a shiny glaze, / There in my paradise maze, / I broke my teeth on thee; / When I bit the mirror to see. AA_0070

For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am know. (I Corinthians 13:12)

[Fleetfootphil]

Logid_ill: I disagree. Intention to make art doesn't produce art any more than intention to win a Nascar race gets you the flowers and champagne.

Whitedragon: Your posts are so long I usually skim over or skip them. Maybe some Cliff's notes or an abridged version would be more to my liking, not that my liking matters. I did notice the word sex in the final paragraph of #52. Funny how that word pops out in a casual scan, I wonder what you said about it. Did you get some? I guess the current lingo for what I respond to is talking points.

[Logic_ill]

[quote="Fleetfootphil"]Logid_ill: I disagree. Intention to make art doesn't produce art any more than intention to win a Nascar race gets you the flowers and champagne.

So, if I take an art class and make a lousy painting, it's not ART that I produced? It would fall under some other label, like "garbage" Might as well call it garbage class?!

You are mistaking "great art" for art's definition, which are two different things. "Great art" is a relative concept by the way...

[Whitedragon]

Hi fleetfootphil

Yes, some of my posts are long; I am very happy with my sex life, thanks. If not anything else, fleetfoot, please read the story about the potter. I'll be leaving this conversation now; I have done all I can. I leave you with these words; sometimes there are normal people among us, who we take for granted; they have important messages, but we trample their love and their messages. To recap; ethics and tolerance for ethics have both been advocated in my posts … art is irrelevant, I don't know how it got to be the human shield we all have been hiding behind. Sex and nudity is a very important part of my life, but it is no the boss of me. We are all gods, (John 10:34-26) Jesus' own words. So who is the god … you, or something else? If Aphrodite manages to manipulate Zeus to her whims with sexuality, then Zeus is not the upper God anymore.

[Naughtorious]

I'd refer to it as terrible art if it were to be art. However. I suppose pornography is an industry and not a practice of expression as much as people practice sexual expressions throughout their sexual activities. All I see is desperate people who have nothing else better to do with their lives except **** and bang for a buck.

When women are in the nude. That's a form of art as long as you capture it to express an idea. Pornography isn't expressing an idea. It's an activity of leisure in an industrial system of cheap performances and false emotions. Portrayed throughout the video only for the sake of money and self-interest. One could say that the setting behind the scene and the camera's can count as a form of art. But I would contest that repeating the same boring shots throughout the video. Playing cheap moans on a tape recorder. Annoying shots of the balls, ass and other easily avoidable scenes of the video. Cheap scripts. Cheap settings. Terrible costumes. Terrible acting. Many other things wrapped up in a terrible ball of guilty pleasure entertainment. This is not art. This is a disgrace to art. Art comes from our ability to express ourselves. I refuse to include our willingness to act on the lowest of activities as art. This is closer to a farce than art. Real sexual art comes from sensual drawings, sensual music, sensual literature. It does not come from people who record themselves having awkwardly poor sex.

A child's drawing is better than pornography if you want to break it down.