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According to [Deutsch] we live in one out of an unfathomable number of parallel universes, which interact at the quantum level. In this multiverse, the idea of individual photon and electron interactions are replaced by an infinite number of interacting instances which collectively can account for all possible forms of behaviour. What many will find very hard to accept is that this idea of an infinite number of alternatives for any given quantum event may provide the simplest explanation of quantum phenomena, and a first glimpse of a new vision of realitySo, many questions come to mind, but one certainly is: is this still 'naturalism'? You may notice that there is a strict taboo in scientific thought on explanations which are supposed to be 'supernatural', on the basis that these are thought to invoke you-know-who. But if, in fact, this model supposes infinite parallel universes to the one we're in, how is this any longer a 'naturalistic' explanation? I would have thought, by definition, that 'nature' consists of the realm that can be explored by scientific instruments. Parallel universes don't fall under that definition.
Skakos wrote: But what do you mean "forget Godel"? He has proved that we cannot prove anything and yet we continue to think that we can? And Quantum mechanics have also discovered limitations which we should also discuss. But before we go there I would really like your opinion on the Godel part.If I may, I believe that what Gene was not trying to say that Godel was irrelative to the subject, but rather that QM better proves the fact that we can never have a full comprehension of reality. Though I don't agree with this because I believe they are completely different things, QM and Godel's theorem.
Skakos wrote:Feyerabend would surely disagree with that. He thought (and I agree) that pure, genuine, innovative scientific work is basically unstructured. How can you be a genius and create new theories if you think inside the box?I actually agree with this in its entirety. But that is not to say that you should disregard everything out of hand. I do think that you need to hypothetically forgo the rational temporarily, in order to get outside the current paradigm. Alas, it is very seldom that you would find an Einstein or a Newton, the overwhelming majority of times you just get the guy with the tinfoil hat.
Skakos wrote: But what do you mean "forget Godel"? He has proved that we cannot prove anything and yet we continue to think that we can? And Quantum mechanics have also discovered limitations which we should also discuss. But before we go there I would really like your opinion on the Godel part.So Godel has _proved_ that we cannot _prove_ anything? I don't have to contradict that statement, as it contradicts itself.
You may notice that there is a strict taboo in scientific thought on explanations which are supposed to be 'supernatural', on the basis that these are thought to invoke you-know-who.This may be the way that many people, including many scientists, would put it, but I disagree. I think that science cannot use explanations or models that cannot ever, in principle or practice, be used to predict future observations. (But it has nothing to say about the disciplines that can use such explanations). People on both "sides" of the debate often tend to use that as a basis for the argument:
But if, in fact, this model supposes infinite parallel universes to the one we're in, how is this any longer a 'naturalistic' explanation? I would have thought, by definition, that 'nature' consists of the realm that can be explored by scientific instruments. Parallel universes don't fall under that definition.Observations of nature do. Predictive theories of those observations don't. Nobody ever measured or observed the law of gravity. They only ever observed things falling towards each other. But the law of gravity exists because it is useful for predicting things that can be observed.
Because these proposals are entertained by people who are supposed to be 'scientific', we naively assume that they are therefore scientific explanations, as opposed to mystical or religious ones.I think the two are not completely different, but the differences are important. Scientific models and mystical beliefs are both products of the human mind that do not exist in the sensible world. You can't observe them. But scientific models are attempts to predict things that do exist in the sensible world. A parallel universe, like anything else that cannot be directly sensed (e.g. an electron) is such a model. Whether it's going to turn out to be useful is another matter.
But these kinds of notions leave the door wide open for 'other dimensions' or 'other realms'. What if someone says they have some kind of psychic connection to 'somebody in another dimension'? You can't say any more that 'scientific thinking rules that kind of thing out'.The door of science is, or should be, always open to absolutely anything whatever that corresponds to repeatable experiences. Scientific thinking does not rule out psychic connections to people in other dimensions. Lack of accurate repeatability does. And that only rules it out of scientific investigation. It doesn't say anything about anything else.
In fact in some multiverse ideas, not only is everything possible, but anything possible must be actual.Sounds great. I guess you could say that in any infinite space filled with an infinite amount of "stuff" then every logically possible thing is happening an infinite number of times. There are an infinite number of planets made entirely out of Lego, for example.
Science is not a self contained axiomatic system, it is a process of understanding the world, nothing is taken as axiomatic as was already explained.Yes. Or perhaps there is just one axiom: The self-referential belief, based on induction, that since induction has been useful up to now it will continue to be useful in the future.
Alas, it is very seldom that you would find an Einstein or a Newton, the overwhelming majority of times you just get the guy with the tinfoil hat.Or Bill Gaede! (If you don't know who I mean, google him. He's .... a character.)
According to [Deutsch] we live in one out of an unfathomable number of parallel universes, which interact at the quantum level.
these kinds of notions leave the door wide open for 'other dimensions' or 'other realms'. What if someone says they have some kind of psychic connection to 'somebody in another dimension'? You can't say any more that 'scientific thinking rules that kind of thing out'. In fact in some multiverse ideas, not only is everything possible, but anything possible must be actual.We already have a booming business in Quantum Consciousness. Laugh you may, but enter that exact term into Amazon's search box, and look at what comes back (around 2,409 hits, some pop-sci, but some written by eminent scientists.)
When Moses asks to see who or what he has been conversing with on Mount Sinai, he is placed in a crevice and told to look out once the radiance has passed (no peeking now!). Anything more than a glimpse of God's receding back, the story implies, would blow his mortal fuses. The equivalent passage in Hindu scripture occurs in the Bhagavad Gita – and, as befitting that most frank of all religions, is more explicit about the nature of the fatal vision. Krishna responds to the warrior Arjuna's request by telling him that no man can bear his naked splendour, then goes right ahead and gives him the necessary upgrade: "divine sight". What follows is one of the wildest, most truly psychedelic episodes in world literature.Review of The Hidden Reality: Parallel Universes and the Deep Laws of the Cosmos by Brian Greene.
No longer veiled by a human semblance, Krishna appears in his universal aspect: a boundless, roaring, all-containing cosmos with a billion eyes and mouths, bristling with "heavenly weapons" and ablaze with the light of a thousand suns. The sight is fearsome not only in its manifold strangeness but because its fire is a consuming one. "The flames of thy mouths," a horrified Arjuna cries, "devour all the worlds … how terrible thy splendours burn!"
Until recently, a physicist would have regarded this scene as the picturesque delirium of a pre-scientific age. Most still would. And yet the contemplation of the unspeakable flowering of an infinity of worlds is no longer the province of "mystics, charlatans and cranks", as the leading string theorist Michio Kaku has written, but instead occupies "the finest minds on the planet". Welcome to the multiverse.
A Poster He or I wrote: Deutch's presentation is very disingenuous, in my opinion. He knows very well that all of his so-called evidence can be explained away by existing interpretations of quantum mechanics. Yet he presents his evidence as proof of multiverse theory. I'm not making any point that any of these other interpretations are truer than Deutch's multiverse interpretation. I'm making the point that none of the evidence Deutch cites is even close to being sufficient to prove multiverse theory. There is no scientific evidence of quantum interaction between parallel universes, even if one buys into multiverse theory.So what is the explanation of the double-slit experiment, or the Mach-Zehnder interferometer?
Quotidian wrote:That is not the point. I made that observation about Deutsch in the context of 'the breakdown of naturalism'. What I said was (Nested quote removed.)If someone says they have a "they have some kind of psychic connection to 'somebody in another dimension'" then they are deluded or certifiably insane. Psychic connections are a delusion, and connections to "somebody" in another dimension are hilariously crackpot.
We already have a booming business in Quantum Consciousness. Laugh you may, but enter that exact term into Amazon's search box, and look at what comes back (around 2,409 hits, some pop-sci, but some written by eminent scientists.)
I stumbled upon a neo-Islamic site recently which was wondering whether the 95% of the Universe that we supposedly can't see might in fact be Heaven.
You see the point? The most old-fashioned materialistic thinkers are currently so-called philosophers (mostly operating out of biology) like Daniel Dennett and the Churchlands. But physics is entertaining completely mind-blowing ideas of multiple universes, parallel dimensions, and the like. Physics has actually demolished the conceptual basis of materialism, as such. So these neat divisions between 'nature' and 'supernatural' are going to be impossible to maintain.
Here is a review from last year, from the Guardian (no, not from Fortean Times):
(Nested quote removed.)
Review of The Hidden Reality: Parallel Universes and the Deep Laws of the Cosmos by Brian Greene.
We already have a booming business in Quantum Consciousness. Laugh you may, but enter that exact term into Amazon's search box, and look at what comes back (around 2,409 hits, some pop-sci, but some written by eminent scientists.)There are also books by eminent scientists about string theory. (I'm currently reading one by Brian Greene). And that hasn't been experimentally verified either. I agree that Physics entertains all kinds of strange sounding ideas. That doesn't mean they have been established as an accurate description of nature and I still think that accurate descriptions of observations is the goal. And the ideas that are worth serious consideration all have solid roots in established ideas that have already been confirmed by observation, because one of the basic requirements of any new idea for a theory is that it should not contradict any observations, and the theories that describe those observations, from the past.
The point is, if science is proposing that infinite parallel universes exist, how do you know what is possible and what isn't?The same as ever. By seeing if those propositions, whatever they are, are supported by observations. Remember: Science proposes lots and lots of things. They are filtered, sooner or later, but always eventually, by observation.
If someone says they have a "they have some kind of psychic connection to 'somebody in another dimension'" then they are deluded or certifiably insane. Psychic connections are a delusion, and connections to "somebody" in another dimension are hilariously crackpot.Whether or not that is true is not the point. If the idea of a psychic connection to somebody in another dimension is not scientific, it is not because it sounds "hilariously crackpot". Lots of things sound like that. It's because it is not a reliably repeatable observation.
Quotidian wrote:The point is, if science is proposing that infinite parallel universes exist, how do you know what is possible and what isn't? You are entitled to your opinion, but you can't look to physics in support.You have got to be joking! The minority of physicists who prefer the "Many Worlds" interpretation of quantum mechanics know precisely what is possible or impossible within that interpretation. One thing that would destroy their perspective would be any implication, theoretical or experimental, that was in conflict with quantum mechanics. None exists!
So what is the explanation of the double-slit experiment, or the Mach-Zehnder interferometer?The explanation of the double-slit experiment completely depends on which interpretation of quantum mechanics you buy into. Deutsch knows that as well as I do, so he should present that to his reader. Instead he presents his view (namely, the quantum is interfering with its own shadow-selves in different universes) in The Fabric of Reality as if it is accepted scientific fact. That is disingenuity unworthy of a scientist or science educator. I don't know much about the Mach-Zehnder interferometer so I'll abstain from an opinion on that device.
Steve3007 wrote:They (theories) are filtered, sooner or later, but always eventually, by observation.But some things will forever be unobservable. Or, to put it another way, observation does not go all the way down. So here you actually run into the limit of, if not science, then certainly empiricism.
Steve3007 wrote:Nobody ever measured or observed the law of gravity.
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