Philosophy Discussion Forums | A Humans-Only Philosophy Club

[Mo_reese]

Bullying seems to be a big part of Western society at least in the US. We see bullying in schools, jobs, sports, military, etc. It seems that we honor bullying. School bullies do not often get punished. Our movies glamorize bullying with Clint Eastwood “Make my Day”. In basketball a simple “slam dunk” is nothing unless one knocks an opponent to the floor.
It seems to me that bullying exists throughout our culture.
The world must think that the US has been the biggest bully in the last century (at least).
Do other countries have a problem with this?

[Lagayscienza]

It's not just in the USA or in the West that this happens. It's everywhere. Humans have a dual nature. As well as being a cooperative species we are also a competitive species. People throw their weight around as they vie for mates, dominance, wealth, power and glory. And it's not just humans who behave like this. In the competitive game of life there must be winners and losers. I'm not saying it's "right". It's just the way it is. In our species competition is tempered by our need to cooperate, and morality is the magic source that tempers our competitiveness and promotes cooperation, and sometimes results in "justice" when things go too far. It's a balancing act.

[Pattern-chaser]

Bullying seems to be a big part of Western society at least in the US. We see bullying in schools, jobs, sports, military, etc. It seems that we honor bullying. School bullies do not often get punished. Our movies glamorize bullying with Clint Eastwood “Make my Day”. In basketball a simple “slam dunk” is nothing unless one knocks an opponent to the floor.
It seems to me that bullying exists throughout our culture.
The world must think that the US has been the biggest bully in the last century (at least).
Do other countries have a problem with this?

Whenever bullying comes up, I think a bit more about it. Last time, I was thinking abut "Bullying in the workplace". ... And I am gradually moving toward the conclusion that bullying behaviour is intrinsic to humanity. Anywhere and everywhere.

We all do it, if we can, for the alternative is to be bullied, which is universally perceived to be a lot worse than bullying.

Am I wrong? Please tell me I'm wrong...?

[Mo_reese]

Whenever bullying comes up, I think a bit more about it. Last time, I was thinking abut "Bullying in the workplace". ... And I am gradually moving toward the conclusion that bullying behaviour is intrinsic to humanity. Anywhere and everywhere.

We all do it, if we can, for the alternative is to be bullied, which is universally perceived to be a lot worse than bullying.

Am I wrong? Please tell me I'm wrong...?

I wish I could tell you that you are wrong but I agree with you. It seems to be genetic. Humans had to bully to survive.

The US puts more emphasis on defense spending (should be called "offense spending") than on helping our own children. We have the worst infant mortality of any modern nation. The US must be the biggest bully nation.

However, bullying goes against the "Social Contract Theory" in that it undermines the idea of a society of mutual obligations by violating trust and respect. However, there doesn't seem to be much success in reducing or eliminating it.

[LuckyR]

In your opinion what separates bullying specifically from mere successful competitiveness?

[Mo_reese]

In your opinion what separates bullying specifically from mere successful competitiveness?

Typically bullying is aggressive behavior usually via a imbalance of power of the aggressor over the victim(s). It can take the form of verbally mocking to actual physical violence. We usually think of the big kid that pushes around smaller kids, but the kids that side with the big bully, to mock the victims, are themselves bullies, just not as physically aggressive.
On a larger scale, the US invasion of Iraq is IMO bullying as was the destruction of the Nord Stream Pipeling.

[Pattern-chaser]

In your opinion what separates bullying specifically from mere successful competitiveness?

I think you've hit the nail on the head.

How do bullying and competition differ?

We cite co-operation, behaving as a social species, as being responsible for the 'success' of our species. This seems to follow directly from empirical and historical observation. But is that co-operation coerced? Perhaps by bullying?

Typically bullying is aggressive behavior usually via an imbalance of power of the aggressor over the victim(s). It can take the form of verbally mocking to actual physical violence. We usually think of the big kid that pushes around smaller kids, but the kids that side with the big bully, to mock the victims, are themselves bullies, just not as physically aggressive.
On a larger scale, the US invasion of Iraq is IMO bullying as was the destruction of the Nord Stream Pipeling.

The US invasion of Iraq was simply to steal oil 'contracts' from their rightful owners. But that's an aside. And yet it is a clear example of bullying, using the threat of military punishment.

Don't we all try to get what we can, by whatever means (skills, talents) we have available to us? Even persuading our 'friends' to do something we want them to is the mildest beginning to bullying, isn't it? We apply whatever pressure we can think of, to get what we want.

In the workplace, a well-known venue for bullying, we all try to get our own way, to advance our own careers, often at the expense of others. The only reason we might not indulge in bullying is that we have no threat to deploy.

Is bullying just 'human nature'?

[LuckyR]

In your opinion what separates bullying specifically from mere successful competitiveness?

Typically bullying is aggressive behavior usually via a imbalance of power of the aggressor over the victim(s). It can take the form of verbally mocking to actual physical violence. We usually think of the big kid that pushes around smaller kids, but the kids that side with the big bully, to mock the victims, are themselves bullies, just not as physically aggressive.
On a larger scale, the US invasion of Iraq is IMO bullying as was the destruction of the Nord Stream Pipeling.

I disagree. IMO competition is normal. Certain times the competition will occur between those with an imbalance of power/capabilities. This is also normal. To me "bullying" is a combination of conflict between those of unequal power PLUS the value of the conflict itself vastly outweighing the "prize" of the conflict. In the classic school yard example, there is no "prize", the psychological rush of intimidating the victim is the goal itself.

Iraq doesn't fit this definition.

[Mo_reese]

In your opinion what separates bullying specifically from mere successful competitiveness?

I think you've hit the nail on the head.

How do bullying and competition differ?

We cite co-operation, behaving as a social species, as being responsible for the 'success' of our species. This seems to follow directly from empirical and historical observation. But is that co-operation coerced? Perhaps by bullying?

Typically bullying is aggressive behavior usually via an imbalance of power of the aggressor over the victim(s). It can take the form of verbally mocking to actual physical violence. We usually think of the big kid that pushes around smaller kids, but the kids that side with the big bully, to mock the victims, are themselves bullies, just not as physically aggressive.
On a larger scale, the US invasion of Iraq is IMO bullying as was the destruction of the Nord Stream Pipeling.

The US invasion of Iraq was simply to steal oil 'contracts' from their rightful owners. But that's an aside. And yet it is a clear example of bullying, using the threat of military punishment.

Don't we all try to get what we can, by whatever means (skills, talents) we have available to us? Even persuading our 'friends' to do something we want them to is the mildest beginning to bullying, isn't it? We apply whatever pressure we can think of, to get what we want.

In the workplace, a well-known venue for bullying, we all try to get our own way, to advance our own careers, often at the expense of others. The only reason we might not indulge in bullying is that we have no threat to deploy.

Is bullying just 'human nature'?

I don't think bullying is Human Nature because Human Nature is what sets humans apart from other species. I believe bullying exists with other species.

Bullying is not competition. A bully takes advantage of an imbalance of power to dominate, mock, and/or belittle a victim. The typical example is of a bigger boy taking the lunch money of a smaller or younger boy.
I think the US is a bully nation. They are arguably the most powerful nation and they do what they please. They invaded Iraq illegally and the other nations hardly objected. But when Russian invades Ukraine, an ally of the US the US responded to defend Ukraine and other nations spoke out against Russia.
The US has a program where they murder suspected terrorists in sovereign countries with drone missiles killing thousands of innocent bystanders besides the suspects. What other country could do this? And how would Israel get away with the many, many crimes against humanity without the US backing them?

[Pattern-chaser]

Bullying is not competition. A bully takes advantage of an imbalance of power to dominate, mock, and/or belittle a victim. The typical example is of a bigger boy taking the lunch money of a smaller or younger boy.
I think the US is a bully nation. They are arguably the most powerful nation and they do what they please. They invaded Iraq illegally and the other nations hardly objected. But when Russian invades Ukraine, an ally of the US responded to defend Ukraine and other nations spoke out against Russia.

The US has a program where they murder suspected terrorists in sovereign countries with drone missiles killing thousands of innocent bystanders besides the suspects. What other country could do this? And how would Israel get away with the many, many crimes against humanity without the US backing them?

I disagree. IMO competition is normal. Certain times the competition will occur between those with an imbalance of power/capabilities. This is also normal. To me "bullying" is a combination of conflict between those of unequal power PLUS the value of the conflict itself vastly outweighing the "prize" of the conflict. In the classic school yard example, there is no "prize", the psychological rush of intimidating the victim is the goal itself.

Iraq doesn't fit this definition.

I had a look around for definitions of bullying. It turns out my UK doesn't even have a legal definition. Several definitions describe bullying as something that children do. Others mention duration, that the bullying takes place over an extended period. But, as we might expect, there is little agreement on details, even if the gross descriptions match (roughly).

Here is the one I found most useful, from ACAS, an industrial organisation that helps with negotiations, etc. Their definition at least covers adults, and does not try to pretend that bullying is something kids do, that they grow out of. Which is simply not true. Bullying takes place among humans of all ages. It might also be common in other species (), as Mo comments.

Although there is no legal definition of bullying, it can be described as unwanted behaviour from a person or group that is either:

offensive, intimidating, malicious or insulting
an abuse or misuse of power that undermines, humiliates, or causes physical or emotional harm to someone

Bullying might:

be a regular pattern of behaviour or a one-off incident
happen face-to-face, on social media, in emails or calls
happen at work or in other work-related situations
not always be obvious or noticed by others

It's possible someone might not know their behaviour is bullying. It can still be bullying even if they do not realise it or do not intend to bully someone.

I have seen nothing that agrees with LuckyR, that the (presumably monetary) *value* of the conflict is relevant.

[Pattern-chaser]

I don't think bullying is Human Nature because Human Nature is what sets humans apart from other species.

With this, I strongly disagree. Humans are natural. We often use the phrase "human nature" to describe ... the natural behaviour of humans. The behaviour that we exhibit as a result of the (instinctive?) attributes that Nature bestows upon us. Human nature is what connects us with other species, I think.

[Mo_reese]

I don't think bullying is Human Nature because Human Nature is what sets humans apart from other species.

With this, I strongly disagree. Humans are natural. We often use the phrase "human nature" to describe ... the natural behaviour of humans. The behaviour that we exhibit as a result of the (instinctive?) attributes that Nature bestows upon us. Human nature is what connects us with other species, I think.

I agree with your statement: “I have seen nothing that agrees with LuckyR, that the (presumably monetary) *value* of the conflict is relevant.
I am not in complete agreement with your definition of Human Nature, but I see your point.

I also can not find any laws that pertain to bullying or any legal term for bullying.

I believe in the culture in which I was raised in the US bullying may not be encouraged but it certainly seems to be accepted.
Our culture is hierarchical in structure and it lends itself to advance those that are most aggressive. School bullies are rarely punished and IMO in the workplace those that are most aggressive or dominate seem to rise to the top more often than not. In many sports like basketball and football, the emphasis is on dominance rather than skill. The military relies on a culture of bullying as does foreign policy of some countries.

I think that encouraging or tolerating bullying is harmful for society as it goes against the ideas of mutual respect and trust within society.

Bullying may be tolerated by authoritative leaders to keep people distracted from other issues, that the leaders are involved with.

[Sy Borg]

Humans have always been violent. Skulls of early hominids commonly showed signs of a violent demise. Other highly intelligent animals, such as chimps (our closest relative) and dolphins are also notably violent. All three species are predators. Predators, by basically definition, prey on those whom they can overpower.

The world is an inherently violent place - it's a matter of kill or be killed. The biosphere has basically eaten itself into sophistication over around 3.8 billion years. Warfare was common in hunter gatherer groups and it continues to be more common, if less ubiquitous.

However, there is a survival advantage to cooperation. Large cooperative groups will defeat more fractured groups. So more large groups with specialised roles will proliferate than smaller, less cooperative ones. Instead of committing violence personally, most denizens of huge human colonies now only perform violence by proxy via the military, police, farms, slaughterhouses, prisons, security firms, etc. But the violence is still ours, committed every day on our behalf.

As a matter of interest, I created the first "professional looking" anti-bullying website on the net to seriously consider and analyse the legal aspects of workplace bullying, and also designed graphic anti-bullying posters. It's one of the few times I've made myself useful in this life.

[Pattern-chaser]

Humans have always been violent. Skulls of early hominids commonly showed signs of a violent demise. Other highly intelligent animals, such as chimps (our closest relative) and dolphins are also notably violent. All three species are predators. Predators, by basically definition, prey on those whom they can overpower.

The world is an inherently violent place - it's a matter of kill or be killed. The biosphere has basically eaten itself into sophistication over around 3.8 billion years. Warfare was common in hunter gatherer groups and it continues to be more common, if less ubiquitous.

However, there is a survival advantage to cooperation. Large cooperative groups will defeat more fractured groups. So more large groups with specialised roles will proliferate than smaller, less cooperative ones. Instead of committing violence personally, most denizens of huge human colonies now only perform violence by proxy via the military, police, farms, slaughterhouses, prisons, security firms, etc. But the violence is still ours, committed every day on our behalf.

As a matter of interest, I created the first "professional looking" anti-bullying website on the net to seriously consider and analyse the legal aspects of workplace bullying, and also designed graphic anti-bullying posters. It's one of the few times I've made myself useful in this life.

This is disturbing, but I can't fault it. It's emerging that we think bullying is intrinsic to humanity. And so it is reasonable to assume we're not going to get rid of it any time soon. Our only saving grace is that co-operation, even in the context of bullying, is also what we do. But I am disappointed to consciously realise that bullying is not some childish aberration that we grow out of, it's something that most mature adults also employ widely.

[Mo_reese]

Humans have always been violent. Skulls of early hominids commonly showed signs of a violent demise. Other highly intelligent animals, such as chimps (our closest relative) and dolphins are also notably violent. All three species are predators. Predators, by basically definition, prey on those whom they can overpower.

The world is an inherently violent place - it's a matter of kill or be killed. The biosphere has basically eaten itself into sophistication over around 3.8 billion years. Warfare was common in hunter gatherer groups and it continues to be more common, if less ubiquitous.

However, there is a survival advantage to cooperation. Large cooperative groups will defeat more fractured groups. So more large groups with specialised roles will proliferate than smaller, less cooperative ones. Instead of committing violence personally, most denizens of huge human colonies now only perform violence by proxy via the military, police, farms, slaughterhouses, prisons, security firms, etc. But the violence is still ours, committed every day on our behalf.

As a matter of interest, I created the first "professional looking" anti-bullying website on the net to seriously consider and analyse the legal aspects of workplace bullying, and also designed graphic anti-bullying posters. It's one of the few times I've made myself useful in this life.

This is disturbing, but I can't fault it. It's emerging that we think bullying is intrinsic to humanity. And so it is reasonable to assume we're not going to get rid of it any time soon. Our only saving grace is that co-operation, even in the context of bullying, is also what we do. But I am disappointed to consciously realise that bullying is not some childish aberration that we grow out of, it's something that most mature adults also employ widely.

Why is bullying tolerated or IMO in some cases encouraged?